Holocaust denial

[syk]

The Holocaust never happened, it was a hoax dreamed up by Hollywood to sell movie tickets.

(Is it legal for Germans to read this post?)

Fuck you, I'll be shipped to a KZ in Poland in 10.

[Slargos]

Well, it's fairly easy to answer, imo. The modern world (especially the modern West) is victim-centered - the best position, politically, to be is to be seen as a victim (all the current tensions between Poland, Russia, Germany and Ukraine, for example, that concern history, are about who was a bigger victim; and this is easily used by politicians as a playing card, both internally and internationally: remember Kaczynski's ridiculous demand that Poland should get more votes in the EU to account for all the people the Germans have killed? There are political movements of expelled Germans in Germany, too; and Russia is pretty much never coming down from the cross either).

By denying Holocaust, antisemites seek to accomplish two things: deny Jews one of the most powerful politically-charged victimhood status in history (which both Israel and Jewish communities around the world have been pretty happy to use as a bludgeon, tbh ), and at the same time paint themselves as victims of Jewish propaganda and lies. This is actually pretty smart on their part, since that's the only way they can actually hope to win the majority over - arguing for another Holocaust is a non-starter and they know it.

I knew it had to happen eventually.

Marty writing a reasonable, thought through post without any direct reference to faggotry.

[PRC]

It's a good question.

[Barrister]

Had this justification been removed, the moral case for supporting Israel would be much weaker.

Disagree.

Well, I am not arguing a position here, I am just saying how it would be viewed by a lot of people.

And Israelis are keenly aware of that - that is why they incorporate Holocaust-related rhetoric into their politics and diplomacy.

Quite honestly - when you refer to Israeli diplomacy (as opposed to Jewish advocacy groups) you'll never hear them refer to the holocaust. 

[Martinus]

Had this justification been removed, the moral case for supporting Israel would be much weaker.

Disagree.

Well, I am not arguing a position here, I am just saying how it would be viewed by a lot of people.

And Israelis are keenly aware of that - that is why they incorporate Holocaust-related rhetoric into their politics and diplomacy.

Quite honestly - when you refer to Israeli diplomacy (as opposed to Jewish advocacy groups) you'll never hear them refer to the holocaust.

Oh please. It is pretty much a routine ritual for any foreign Head of State visiting Israel to either go to pray for the Holocaust victims at the Wailing Wall and/or visit the Yad Vashem (sp?) institute.

Only because it is in the area of symbology and imagery, rather than direct words, does not mean it is not very much present in the way Israel conducts diplomacy.

[Martinus]

Isn't that a position?

Anyways, Israel deserves to be wiped off the map, but as long as people carry guilt over doing nothing about the Holocaust, it will remain protected.

In reality though, if world order ever breaks down, the first nukes to hit Jerusalem won't be from Tehran, but Paris, or Berlin, or especially Poland if Russia decides to restation their arsenal there in their new empire.

Just in case anyone wanted to take Jaron seriously...

Care to ATTEMPT to refute my arguments or do you just have "I disagree" to throw out? Hope thats not how your Yukon Kangaroo courts operate.

"The defense has intends to show that the defendant, Lil' Runnin Polar Bear, was not drunk and did not strike that Mountie"

BB: "I disagree"

Judge: "The defendant is found: GUILTY"

LOL yeah he responded in the same way to my post. 

[Martinus]

Not to mention, we cannot exclude the possibility that many Holocaust deniers are saying Holocaust never happened because... they believe Holocaust never happened.

There are people who believe that the Earth is 6000 years old, that the Moon landing was staged and that God exists. Surely, neither of them is more sane than a typical Holocaust denier.

[Josquius]

Martys post does explain it a bit. Still weird stuff though.
They must realise outright holocaust denial is ridiculous. Some of them do do this and say it just wasn't as bad as its painted, fair enough, but others still deny completely....

Not to mention, we cannot exclude the possibility that many Holocaust deniers are saying Holocaust never happened because... they believe Holocaust never happened.

There are people who believe that the Earth is 6000 years old, that the Moon landing was staged and that God exists. Surely, neither of them is more sane than a typical Holocaust denier.

Believing the holocaust never happened though is just retarded.
Its becoming less so today than it was 20 years ago but still.
There's the testimonys of millions to rely on- not just Jews but other victims, various Germans, allied liberators, red cross people who moved in afterwards, etc...
Then of course there's the evidence you can still see today. I've been to Auschwitz, I can confirm it exists.

The Earth being 6000 years old -well its not so easy to believe, for many of us we just believe this because science tells us so. Sure there's a bit of direct evidence in fossils and then of course its just simple logic but...its not conclusive, you can see how people could delude themself that science is lying.

God...well. Thats covered elsewhere.

[Caliga]

I completely agree with Marti on this as well.  I pretty much was going to make the same post until I saw his.

NB: I am a strong supporter of the state of Israel.

[HisMajestyBOB]

I really don't think Holocaust deniers actually exist. All those websites, etc. are just hoaxes left by blue Prussians, or something.

[Valmy]

Believing the holocaust never happened though is just retarded.
Its becoming less so today than it was 20 years ago but still.

Well that is the whole point isn't it?

[Valmy]

Had this justification been removed, the moral case for supporting Israel would be much weaker.

I don't know there were about two hundred thousand Jews in Palestine in 1939 I don't know if it would have been too immoral a statement later on that the area should be partitioned when the British left.  Especially as there would be six million more living Jews to support them and generally the only significant real support Israel gets is from the Jewish Diaspora and their allies.  I have not really noticed massive moral support for Israel because of the Holocaust at all really, but then this is now and things were probably different in 1948 in that regard.

I generally disagree very strongly that somehow the Holocaust created Israel since the project was already 50 years along at that point.

[Slargos]

Had this justification been removed, the moral case for supporting Israel would be much weaker.

Disagree.

Well, I am not arguing a position here, I am just saying how it would be viewed by a lot of people.

And Israelis are keenly aware of that - that is why they incorporate Holocaust-related rhetoric into their politics and diplomacy.

Quite honestly - when you refer to Israeli diplomacy (as opposed to Jewish advocacy groups) you'll never hear them refer to the holocaust.

I will admit I don't really follow Israeli diplomacy, but the first Israeli response to this summer's Swedish-Israeli diplomatic fracas was "ZOMG! just like in WW2!!!111"

[Barrister]

Had this justification been removed, the moral case for supporting Israel would be much weaker.

Disagree.

Well, I am not arguing a position here, I am just saying how it would be viewed by a lot of people.

And Israelis are keenly aware of that - that is why they incorporate Holocaust-related rhetoric into their politics and diplomacy.

Quite honestly - when you refer to Israeli diplomacy (as opposed to Jewish advocacy groups) you'll never hear them refer to the holocaust.

I will admit I don't really follow Israeli diplomacy, but the first Israeli response to this summer's Swedish-Israeli diplomatic fracas was "ZOMG! just like in WW2!!!111"

Oh really?  Care to provide a link?

[Admiral Yi]

I don't know there were about two hundred thousand Jews in Palestine in 1939 I don't know if it would have been too immoral a statement later on that the area should be partitioned when the British left.  Especially as there would be six million more living Jews to support them and generally the only significant real support Israel gets is from the Jewish Diaspora and their allies.  I have not really noticed massive moral support for Israel because of the Holocaust at all really, but then this is now and things were probably different in 1948 in that regard.

I generally disagree very strongly that somehow the Holocaust created Israel since the project was already 50 years along at that point.

The original UN partition plan heavily favored the Jews. It's not a stretch to argue that Holocaust pity played a part in that.

Germany payed (still does?) significant guilt money to Israel.

I think Holocaust pity is the bedrock of American support for Israel.