Who is the legitimate ruler of France?

[dps]

Less than 700 miles from Brest-Litovsk to Moscow, isn't it?  That's like 1 month at 20 miles a day, which is a doable march.

And then you are in an abandoned Moscow in the middle of winter.

We all know how well that worked for Napoleon.

It would have been a lot more difficult for the Soviet government to just abandon Moscow in 1941 than it was for Imperial Russia in 1812.  For one thing, Moscow was the main hub of their railroad system. 

[Eddie Teach]

@Timmay
ooh burn You'd better wear a cup next time you see Kat.

He needed the cup long before posting that.

[Valmy]

And then you are in an abandoned Moscow in the middle of winter.

We all know how well that worked for Napoleon.

Well that is also a good point.  His army was going to be in Russia that winter win or lose.  Amazing he never planned for winter clothes or anti-freeze or any other sorts of gear.

[The Minsky Moment]

Quite the opposite - thanks to those men it was less robust because in addition to all the supply needs that Napoleon required, and the additional supply needs of heavy artillery, he also had to supply vast quantities of gasoline and aviation fuel to front line units to maintain effectiveness.

Be that as it may, they allowed supplies to be marshalled and transported much more efficiently.  While demand increased, transport capacity increased even more.

The question you raised though is robustness, and whatever increase in theoretical transport capacity may have existed only added to overall complexity and requirements, this rendering the system more vulnerable to friction.

Napoleon's logistical plans were arguably reasonably robust, they just weren't designed for a march on Moscow that didn't form part of the plan of campaign.

[The Minsky Moment]

Less than 700 miles from Brest-Litovsk to Moscow, isn't it?  That's like 1 month at 20 miles a day, which is a doable march.

And then you are in an abandoned Moscow in the middle of winter.

We all know how well that worked for Napoleon.

It would have been a lot more difficult for the Soviet government to just abandon Moscow in 1941 than it was for Imperial Russia in 1812. 

True but not really responsive to the point.

[Malthus]

I think the issue is somewhat irrelevant, because Hitler was planning on administering the chaotic remains of the Soviet Empire, not fighting an increasingly-vicious war, by the time he reached Moscow. That's a task on a whole different level. Presumably there would still be supply problems, but these would mostly be born by the starving Soviet citizenry - something to which Hitler was, of course, totally indifferent.

Hitler's big failure was the failure of the Soviet system to collapse as expected, even under the terrible wounds he inflicted. With that failure, his defeat was inevitable pretty well no matter what he did.

[Valmy]

Hitler's big failure was the failure of the Soviet system to collapse as expected, even under the terrible wounds he inflicted. With that failure, his defeat was inevitable pretty well no matter what he did.

If he had taken Moscow in 1941 there is no doubt in my mind the Soviets would have been finished.  If his troops had been properly equipt they would have.

[Razgovory]

Yeah.  Any projections of the Red Army based on the Winter War would assume it would be like Poland all over again.

Except that the Soviet Union is huge and had a far bigger population than Germany?  Heck just walking his army to Moscow was going to take several months even without that pesky Red Army in the way.

Less than 700 miles from Brest-Litovsk to Moscow, isn't it?  That's like 1 month at 20 miles a day, which is a doable march.

20 miles a day is the upper limit.  And it's not sustainable for a very long time.  Also requires good roads.  The germans had this problem in 1914.

[Malthus]

Hitler's big failure was the failure of the Soviet system to collapse as expected, even under the terrible wounds he inflicted. With that failure, his defeat was inevitable pretty well no matter what he did.

If he had taken Moscow in 1941 there is no doubt in my mind the Soviets would have been finished.  If his troops had been properly equipt they would have.

That's just pushing the "Soviet collapse" theory forward a notch.

No doubt Hilter told his generals "if we destroy the Soviet main field armies, they are finished".

What both ignore is that the Soviet people had, quite literally, no options. They *knew* what defeat meant.

Hitler's big (and given his ideology, inevitable) mistake was in failing to leave his enemy a "golden bridge" to surrender. He'd done that before - in Munich and even with the fall of France, allowing the Vichy regime to have a tenuous existence.

There was simply no alternative for the Russian people but to fight to the death, and such a fight Hitler did not have the resources to win.   

[Valmy]

No doubt Hilter told his generals "if we destroy the Soviet main field armies, they are finished".

Well logistically Moscow was the heart of the extremely centralized Soviet System.  It would have been extremely hard to even coordinate resistance without it.

[Malthus]

No doubt Hilter told his generals "if we destroy the Soviet main field armies, they are finished".

Well logistically Moscow was the heart of the extremely centralized Soviet System.  It would have been extremely hard to even coordinate resistance without it.

The problem Hilter would have faced is: what if they aren't "finished"?

He simply did not have the resources to keep sending his armies off into the Asian void indefinitely, particularly with the anglo-americans ready to stab him in the back. He needed them to recognize they were beat and surrender. Yet everything he did made that outcome very unlikely. 

[Kleves]

Well, I'm convinced - Hitler is the legitimate ruler of France.

[Valmy]

Well, I'm convinced - Hitler is the legitimate ruler of France.

He's dead.  Zombie Hitler?

[Malthus]

Well, I'm convinced - Hitler is the legitimate ruler of France.

He's dead.  Zombie Hitler?

Has to wrestle, Mexican lucha libre  style, with Zombie Napoleon for the title.

Edit: tag-team with zombie Louis 14?

[The Minsky Moment]

I think the issue is somewhat irrelevant, because Hitler was planning on administering the chaotic remains of the Soviet Empire, not fighting an increasingly-vicious war, by the time he reached Moscow. That's a task on a whole different level. Presumably there would still be supply problems, but these would mostly be born by the starving Soviet citizenry - something to which Hitler was, of course, totally indifferent.

the issue was irrelevant for Napoleon too because he expected the Russians to offer terms long before his army got near Moscow.

In both cases, the lack of a Plan B proved problematic to say the least.