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Why Were the Greeks So Clever?

Started by Queequeg, September 02, 2009, 04:06:13 PM

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Warspite

The question is, were they clever because they were Greeks, or were they Greeks because they were clever?
" SIR – I must commend you on some of your recent obituaries. I was delighted to read of the deaths of Foday Sankoh (August 9th), and Uday and Qusay Hussein (July 26th). Do you take requests? "

OVO JE SRBIJA
BUDALO, OVO JE POSTA

Ed Anger

Quote from: Warspite on September 02, 2009, 05:05:07 PM
The question is, were they clever because they were Greeks, or were they Greeks because they were clever?

its all greek to me.
Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

Jaron

The Greeks considered butter barbaric and disgusting. They weren't that clever afterall.
Winner of THE grumbler point.

Razgovory

Quote from: Martinus on September 02, 2009, 04:41:33 PM
Short and simple but serious answer: long coastline and scarcity of natural resources and arable land.

Compare this to Egypt and draw your own conclusions. ;)

Which is why Finland is a world power today.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Valmy

Quote from: Razgovory on September 02, 2009, 05:17:26 PM
Which is why Finland is a world power today.

I knew the success of Nokia had to be explained somehow.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

garbon

Quote from: Hansmeister on September 02, 2009, 04:57:34 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 02, 2009, 04:18:01 PM
Wow!  That's quite a bit of extrapolation based on a single case and a shitload of assumptions about what an absence of evidence implies!  :lol:
That's Jared Diamond in a nutshell.

:yes:
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Razgovory

Quote from: Hansmeister on September 02, 2009, 04:57:34 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 02, 2009, 04:18:01 PM
Wow!  That's quite a bit of extrapolation based on a single case and a shitload of assumptions about what an absence of evidence implies!  :lol:
That's Jared Diamond in a nutshell.  He should've stuck to birdwatching.

I hate to say this, but I kind of agree with you.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Jaron

Winner of THE grumbler point.

Viking

#23
Why were the greeks different? I think it is because of how they were ruled. They were basically ruled by themselves. And by themselves I mean the part of the army that made winning battles possible, the hoplites. I'd not use the Myceneans as comparisons or even consider them relevant. The greek dark age killed their empire off and left greece barbaric for 700 years. I think the secret is in the dark age, it seems the only things the Myceneans really left was their language preserved through Homer and Hesiod. The language of Linear B survives and becomes greek, while they steal phonecian writing. The language is kept through the epic poetry and the values of Homer become the values of greece. Add that to the greek military system where the decisive branch was not a super elite charioteer, but rather a heavy infantryman. To reach the top of their society all you really needed was to afford armour and arms. Add to that nature of the greek countryside where small towns or large villages were the norm, rather than a large city dominating all the land for weeks around then you get a society where the most successful social organisation is one of small towns ruled by the men who fight and die for them. The polis allows for the successful cooperation of individuals for a common cause. Every other society needed a god-king to get the locals to dig a canal or build a temple. The polis allowed the local men to get together and agree, hey we need a temple, let's build one. They didn't need great architecture such as city walls (the battles were decisive in the field) they didn't need canals (they either didn't really have rivers or the narrow valley they lived in meant they were already next to it) etc.etc. I think this is one of the reasons there are so few archeological remains from the greek dark age. A social structure that didn't need stone and therefore didn't use it was emerging.

The polis and the citizen, that's what made the Greeks so clever. 

It's the Ideas that matter. Just remember, once Classical Greek culture had been wiped from Greece by the Goths, Slavs, Bulgars and Ottomans the country reverted to the festering shit hole it had always been.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Jaron

Winner of THE grumbler point.

Eddie Teach

To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

Valmy

Quote from: Jaron on September 02, 2009, 05:23:24 PM
Someones romanticizing. :whistle:

Everybody knows Greece was just a prelude to: Ottoman Empire.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Jaron

Greeks->Romans->Byzantines->Ottomans->Armenians->Psellus->Obama->USA
Winner of THE grumbler point.

Eddie Teach

Quote from: Jaron on September 02, 2009, 05:31:10 PM
Greeks->Romans->Byzantines->Ottomans->Armenians->Psellus->Obama->USA

Obama is the Dawn?
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

garbon

One day people will look back and ask "What were Americans so amazing?"

Hopefully, they'll discover the correct answer: "God." :goodboy:
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.