Friends, foes mark WWII’s beginning in Poland

[Razgovory]

Nazism didn't have philosophical foundations.  It wasn't exactly a brains operation.

[Martinus]

Nazism didn't have philosophical foundations.  It wasn't exactly a brains operation.

It was based in the 19th century's German romanticism. It had as much to do with Nietzsche as the Soviet brand of communism had to do with Marx (note, for example, that Marx's theory concerned industrial and post-industrial societies; the Bolshevik Revolution happened before Russia even reached a full blown industrial phase).

[Eddie Teach]

Ok but I think we are comparing apples and oranges here.

The claim that "communism is not murderous in theory" is based on whose theory? Stalin's? He advocated mass murder. Lenin's? He advocated international revolution that was to be bloody. No, the claim is based on writings of Marx.

If so, then comparing this to Hitler's "Mein Kampf" really doesn't make sense, since Hitler would be the nazi equivalent of Lenin or Stalin, not of Marx. Admittedly, there isn't the same kind of "father figure" for nazism, but you'd be more correct looking at one of the late 19th century German philosophers than Hitler for the "theoretical foundations of nazism".

Heck, I think Jos is going pre-Marx to some of those 19th century hippie villages for his inspiration.

[Valmy]

there isn't the same kind of "father figure" for nazism, but you'd be more correct looking at one of the late 19th century German philosophers than Hitler for the "theoretical foundations of nazism".

Arthur de Gobineau?  He was the dude who thought up the whole thing I thought.  A Frenchman who thought France was doomed because of mixbreeding...naturally his ideas were more popular in Germany.

[Valmy]

Heck, I think Jos is going pre-Marx to some of those 19th century hippie villages for his inspiration.

Those guys, like Louis Blanc, were self-labelled Socialists not Communists.

[Martinus]

there isn't the same kind of "father figure" for nazism, but you'd be more correct looking at one of the late 19th century German philosophers than Hitler for the "theoretical foundations of nazism".

Arthur de Gobineau?  He was the dude who thought up the whole thing I thought.  A Frenchman who thought France was doomed because of mixbreeding...naturally his ideas were more popular in Germany.

Yeah, I guess it would be fair to see that it was the mix of him and Nietzsche (subsequently heavily edited/misapplied/reforged into a political and totalitarian ideology) much like the works of Marx and Engels were used by the communists in Russia. In both cases you have a cooky - but ultimately not necessarily murderous - ideology of a "perfect society" thought up by some crazy misanthropes with no political success whatsoever (Marx allegedly suffered from a psychosis due to heavy pain from warts under his armpits; Nietzsche ended up in a loony bin), used for political purposes by murderous bastards.

[Razgovory]

Nazism didn't have philosophical foundations.  It wasn't exactly a brains operation.

It was based in the 19th century's German romanticism. It had as much to do with Nietzsche as the Soviet brand of communism had to do with Marx (note, for example, that Marx's theory concerned industrial and post-industrial societies; the Bolshevik Revolution happened before Russia even reached a full blown industrial phase).

I never argued it had much to do with Nietzsche thought some of his idea did influence some the nazis. Mostly it was just reactionary opportunism.

[Neil]

I love how people still cling to the idiocy that communism was "good in theory".

Both communism and nazism/fascism sought to build a "perfect society" - that's the staple of any totalitarian system. They both also sought to physically destroy those who were standing in the way of this perfect society.

Incidentally, Holocaust was not a part of the "nazism theory" any more than gulags were part of the "communism theory".

You actually said something smart.

[Martinus]

Oh, incidentally, President Kaczynski has apologized during his speech for Poland grabbing a part of Czechoslovakia in 1938 (first time ever from a Polish leader) and Czechs apparently are now ecstatic. 

[Valmy]

Oh, incidentally, President Kaczynski has apologized during his speech for Poland grabbing a part of Czechoslovakia in 1938 (first time ever from a Polish leader) and Czechs apparently now love us. 

It was about time.  That was a despicable act and something needed to be said.

[Martinus]

Oh, incidentally, President Kaczynski has apologized during his speech for Poland grabbing a part of Czechoslovakia in 1938 (first time ever from a Polish leader) and Czechs apparently now love us. 

It was about time.  That was a despicable act and something needed to be said.

Well it was mostly stupid. It would be more despicable if the Czechs themselves didn't grab it from Poland when Poland was busy fighting the Soviets in 1920.

[Valmy]

Well it was mostly stupid. It would be more despicable if the Czechs themselves didn't grab it from Poland when Poland was busy fighting the Soviets in 1920.

That was different since Poland won in 1920.

If Poland had lost and the Soviet Union conquered Eastern Europe....well then the Czechs would have looked like real assholes.  Sort of like the Poles did in 1938.

[Razgovory]

Oh, incidentally, President Kaczynski has apologized during his speech for Poland grabbing a part of Czechoslovakia in 1938 (first time ever from a Polish leader) and Czechs apparently now love us. 

It was about time.  That was a despicable act and something needed to be said.

Well it was mostly stupid. It would be more despicable if the Czechs themselves didn't grab it from PolandRussia when Poland was busy fighting the Soviets in 1920.

Fixed it for you.

[Martinus]

Well it was mostly stupid. It would be more despicable if the Czechs themselves didn't grab it from Poland when Poland was busy fighting the Soviets in 1920.

That was different since Poland won in 1920.

If Poland had lost and the Soviet Union conquered Eastern Europe....well then the Czechs would have looked like real assholes.  Sort of like the Poles did in 1938.

Yeah I know. That's why I said it was more stupid than evil. Essentially, Poles felt they were in the right, but no matter if they were, you just don't do shit like this.

Also, I don't remember the facts but I think Czechs grabbed it when Poland looked like it was on the losing side - before the battle of Warsaw it looked like Poland will get overrun by the Soviets.

[Martinus]

Oh, incidentally, President Kaczynski has apologized during his speech for Poland grabbing a part of Czechoslovakia in 1938 (first time ever from a Polish leader) and Czechs apparently now love us. 

It was about time.  That was a despicable act and something needed to be said.

Well it was mostly stupid. It would be more despicable if the Czechs themselves didn't grab it from PolandRussia when Poland was busy fighting the Soviets in 1920.

Fixed it for you.

That part was never owned by Russia. It was Austrian before the Polish declaration of independence.