RIP Edward Kennedy

[Sheilbh]

None of that means jack in light of the fact that his moral character was revealed early on to be grossly broken. He killed some girl because he cared more about himself and his political career than he did her life.

I don't care if he turned into fucking Mother Theresa afterward. He should ahve spent the next 20 years in prison.

Well we disagree on that, but I don't think this thread lacks for Chappaquiddick references.

And I was responding to someone who said he hadn't done much in the Senate - someone else said immigration and a weak education bill - they were wrong.  He's done a lot, regardless of whether he turned into Mother Theresa or not and regardless of what you think of his record.

[Berkut]

None of that means jack in light of the fact that his moral character was revealed early on to be grossly broken. He killed some girl because he cared more about himself and his political career than he did her life.

I don't care if he turned into fucking Mother Theresa afterward. He should ahve spent the next 20 years in prison.

Well we disagree on that, but I don't think this thread lacks for Chappaquiddick references.

And I was responding to someone who said he hadn't done much in the Senate - someone else said immigration and a weak education bill - they were wrong.  He's done a lot, regardless of whether he turned into Mother Theresa or not and regardless of what you think of his record.

There is no question as a legislator he has an incredibly impressive record.

Who said he hadn't done much in the Senate? That is crazy talk.

I am simply remarking on my evaluation of him as a human being. No matter what his accomplishments as a legislator, he is still the man who let a young woman he was responsible for drown because he cared more about covering his ass than saving her life.

I am frankly amazed that anyone could excuse that because he happens to be a successful politician on their side. I would certainly not, even if he was a moderate 'libertarian' (or whatever pigeonhole I fit into) who had just as much success.

[Fate]

If it wasn't the dead chick, Berkut would be alongside Hans and Palin decrying Ted's excoriation of Bork and the legions of terminated fetuses. It's the fact that Ted was a liberal and not any specific act that is prompting Berkut's trolls in a respectful RIP thread. For shame, sir.

[Sheilbh]

There is no question as a legislator he has an incredibly impressive record.

Who said he hadn't done much in the Senate? That is crazy talk.

I said he was the most consequential Kennedy brother and Cal said:

While certainly true, that isn't saying a whole lot.

Which I think just isn't true.  As I say I don't think there's an area of American political life he hasn't touched.

I am simply remarking on my evaluation of him as a human being. No matter what his accomplishments as a legislator, he is still the man who let a young woman he was responsible for drown because he cared more about covering his ass than saving her life.

I am frankly amazed that anyone could excuse that because he happens to be a successful politician on their side. I would certainly not, even if he was a moderate 'libertarian' (or whatever pigeonhole I fit into) who had just as much success.

I'm not trying to evaluate him as a human being, nor am I excusing Chappaquiddick.  The more you read about it the more reprehensible Kennedy's position becomes.  All I said was this:

Quote from: garbon on August 26, 2009, 04:32:52 pm

    I'm glad that Obama called him the greatest senator of our time.

I can't think of many other candidates.  Part of it's longevity, but it's difficult to think of an area of American political life without legislation written or sponsored by Kennedy.  In terms of real impact (as opposed to myth and cultural impact) I think he's by far and away the most consequential of the Kennedy clan.

However I do think that the thing I try to do when someone dies is to remember them not to evaluate or judge them. 

[Berkut]

However I do think that the thing I try to do when someone dies is to remember them not to evaluate or judge them. 

I agree with that sentiment in general, but there are limits, and Ted Kennedy is well beyond them.

The only thing more revolting is that apparently most Americans are so shallow that they are willing to ignore something as reprehensible as Chappaquidick. Yet another example of the negative power of tribalism in politics.

[Berkut]

If it wasn't the dead chick, Berkut would be alongside Hans and Palin decrying Ted's excoriation of Bork and the legions of terminated fetuses.

I am well known for my concern for dead fetuses.

[The Minsky Moment]

The Chappaquiddick incident certainly wasn't his brightest moment, but don't you think it is a bit harsh to judge the man and his legacy based on an isolated act 40 years ago, especially if you take into account the amount of good he has done politically?

I don't think it's unfair.  A normal politician would have had his career completely destroyed by that incident.  Many have had their careers ruined over much less.  Kennedy was able to shrug it off in terms of his career because he was a Kennedy and the eldest remaining scion of that clan.  But that benefit had a cost - because of his high profile, the incident - which otherwise might have become an obscure historical footnote - was never forgotten.  Such is the price that fame demands even as it brings its benefits.  You can't have one without the other.

[KRonn]

However I do think that the thing I try to do when someone dies is to remember them not to evaluate or judge them. 

I agree with that sentiment in general, but there are limits, and Ted Kennedy is well beyond them.

The only thing more revolting is that apparently most Americans are so shallow that they are willing to ignore something as reprehensible as Chappaquidick. Yet another example of the negative power of tribalism in politics.

I don't think I ever really ignored that. I felt that Kennedy should have, certainly could have, been doing some prison time, same as anyone else, for that. And it could have ruined his political career. It was the Kennedy mystique and political connections that saved him, and that was so wrong. Maybe the incident was ruled an accident and it was properly handled by authorities. I never really got too deep into it. But still, others would have had to pay something for it while he pretty much did not.

I guess that I've heard so much bashing on Kennedy over Chappaquiddick that I've come to put it aside, to some extent, when considering his over all career. I've tried to give Kennedy his due for the positive things he's done, while still finding his getting away with Chappaquiddick a serious flaw.

[The Minsky Moment]

And I was responding to someone who said he hadn't done much in the Senate - someone else said immigration and a weak education bill - they were wrong.  He's done a lot, regardless of whether he turned into Mother Theresa or not and regardless of what you think of his record.

The current crop on the left of the Democratic Party would do well to reflect on their fallen icon's willingness to make the necessary compromises to get deals done and legislation passed.  Teddy understood politics and he understood that the perfect is the enemy of the good.  I hope that in the rush to craft ornate eulogies that this critical point sinks through.

[KRonn]

And I was responding to someone who said he hadn't done much in the Senate - someone else said immigration and a weak education bill - they were wrong.  He's done a lot, regardless of whether he turned into Mother Theresa or not and regardless of what you think of his record.

The current crop on the left of the Democratic Party would do well to reflect on their fallen icon's willingness to make the necessary compromises to get deals done and legislation passed.  Teddy understood politics and he understood that the perfect is the enemy of the good.  I hope that in the rush to craft ornate eulogies that this critical point sinks through.

Senator Orin Hatch talked about this at some length. He being on the other side of politics but often working with Kennedy to over come tough obstacles in getting legislation passed.

[Caliga]

Shelf, you misunderstood my earlier comment.  I didn't mean to say "Kennedy did not do alot" but rather "it's not hard to best the accomplishments of his brothers".  Like someone else said, the elder Kennedys were more flair than actual achievement.

[The Minsky Moment]

Like someone else said, the elder Kennedys were more flair than actual achievement.

Not really fair to Jack and Bobby - both were murdered while they were still young.

[The Brain]

Fuck one sheep etc. Nigga could have very easily avoided The Incident. He chose not to. End of story, prosecution breasts etc.

By all accounts he was scum.

[Caliga]

Not really fair to Jack and Bobby - both were murdered while they were still young.

Oh, I know, but it is what it is.  In all honesty I would not have expected 'greatness' out of JFK, but I certainly would have expected it from RFK.  I think he was the most gifted Kennedy brother and I would have liked to see him become President, even though I probably would have hated his political achievements (much like I dislike most of what FDR achieved on the domestic front, but recognize his greatness).

[Razgovory]

None of that means jack in light of the fact that his moral character was revealed early on to be grossly broken. He killed some girl because he cared more about himself and his political career than he did her life.

I don't care if he turned into fucking Mother Theresa afterward. He should ahve spent the next 20 years in prison.

I thought he killed someone cause he drove off a bridge.