Victoria 2

[Neil]

And I am not saying it was in the people's interest to see A-H live on. (well it was for Hungarians but whatever)

Oh yes it was.  The Empire was the best way to secure the economic prosperity of Eastern Europe and keep the Russians and Germans out.  The Monarchy fell and the place has been an economic basketcase and playground for Russians and Germans ever since.

Breaking up A-H was an idea based on ethnic hatred and nationalistic head-up-assism and a great historical example about how if you do not hang together you will most assuredly hang separately.

Totally agree, in all deference to Putin it was the collapse of A-H that was the 20th century's greatest geopolitical disaster not the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Why would you defer to Putin?

[Caliga]

Totally agree, in all deference to Putin it was the collapse of A-H that was the 20th century's greatest geopolitical disaster not the collapse of the Soviet Union.

I think I would more generally say it was the Treaty of Versailles (which is of course related to the collapse of Austria-Hungary).

[Valmy]

I think I would more generally say it was the Treaty of Versailles (which is of course related to the collapse of Austria-Hungary).

I would more generally say it was the 14 points of Wilson.

The Treaty had to do with Germany.  Separate treaties were made with the other Central Powers.

[grumbler]

I think I would more generally say it was the Treaty of Versailles (which is of course related to the collapse of Austria-Hungary).

I would more generally say it was the 14 points of Wilson.

The Treaty had to do with Germany.  Separate treaties were made with the other Central Powers.

I would say that it was the failure of Britain and France to stay with the Fourteen Points once they had achieved their purpose.  Had the post war peace treaties been based on the Fourteen points, as the British and French promised they would be, a lot of the postwar problems might have been averted.

The breakup of the AH Empire was a disaster for Hungary, but could not have been averted.  There is no polishing a turd.

[Razgovory]

And who cares if there is a disaster for Hungary?  It's like a Chinese mine disaster.

[dps]

I think I would more generally say it was the Treaty of Versailles (which is of course related to the collapse of Austria-Hungary).

I would more generally say it was the 14 points of Wilson.

The Treaty had to do with Germany.  Separate treaties were made with the other Central Powers.

I would say that it was the failure of Britain and France to stay with the Fourteen Points once they had achieved their purpose.  Had the post war peace treaties been based on the Fourteen points, as the British and French promised they would be, a lot of the postwar problems might have been averted.

The breakup of the AH Empire was a disaster for Hungary, but could not have been averted.  There is no polishing a turd.

True, but if it had happened in some other manner than as a result of having been on the losing side of a World War, the territiorial settlements might not have been as bad for Hungary as the historical result.

[Neil]

I would say that it was the failure of Britain and France to stay with the Fourteen Points once they had achieved their purpose.  Had the post war peace treaties been based on the Fourteen points, as the British and French promised they would be, a lot of the postwar problems might have been averted.

Not really.  The Fourteen points were disastrous.

[Alcibiades]

I would say that it was the failure of Britain and France to stay with the Fourteen Points once they had achieved their purpose.  Had the post war peace treaties been based on the Fourteen points, as the British and French promised they would be, a lot of the postwar problems might have been averted.

Not really.  The Fourteen points were disastrous.

How would you know, your people were barely even represented in the war back then, what with something like 7 million people or so.   

[Neil]

I would say that it was the failure of Britain and France to stay with the Fourteen Points once they had achieved their purpose.  Had the post war peace treaties been based on the Fourteen points, as the British and French promised they would be, a lot of the postwar problems might have been averted.

Not really.  The Fourteen points were disastrous.

How would you know, your people were barely even represented in the war back then, what with something like 7 million people or so.   

Canadians won the war for the Allies.

[Valmy]

How would you know, your people were barely even represented in the war back then, what with something like 7 million people or so.  

No he is right.  I mean the British and the French made plenty of idiotic mistakes but Wilson effectively fucked everything up.  How dare he stand up and declare openly specific promises to redraw the map of Europe without consulting his allies along with ridiculous vague notions of international free trade and slashed military budgets as war aims. 

[Tamas]

Yep.

Altough I think I must give some credit to the Americans. I read the reports of the US officer in the allied council overseeing Hungary during Budapest's Romanian occupation, and he certainly saw the rampant nation-wide pillaging the barbarian ROMAnians performed on an industrial level. He was actually quite strongly outlying his disgust and distrust of the Romanian officers. And I have doubts that France had any grand plans except for beefing up their pet Romania as much as possible.

[crazy canuck]

Totally agree, in all deference to Putin it was the collapse of A-H that was the 20th century's greatest geopolitical disaster not the collapse of the Soviet Union.

I think I would more generally say it was the Treaty of Versailles (which is of course related to the collapse of Austria-Hungary).

Paris 1919 is a great book describing in great detail how the British and French really screwed things up.  The American points could have worked if:

a) As, Grumbler pointed out they actually stuck to the game plan; and

b) If they had stuck to it, they had some idea going into the talks what they were doing, rather then being influenced by whatever delegations were able to make it to Paris from the areas where new borders and nations were being created.

If, with hindsight, we could go back and redo one historical event this would have to rank near the top of the list.

[PRC]

Paris 1919 is a great book describing in great detail how the British and French really screwed things up.  The American points could have worked if:

a) As, Grumbler pointed out they actually stuck to the game plan; and

b) If they had stuck to it, they had some idea going into the talks what they were doing, rather then being influenced by whatever delegations were able to make it to Paris from the areas where new borders and nations were being created.

If, with hindsight, we could go back and redo one historical event this would have to rank near the top of the list.

As an aside... I was impressed when I read in Paris 1919 that Ho Chi Minh was working as a dishwasher in Paris at the time of the Treaty conference and he submitted a petition to the great powers involved for the recognition of an independent Vietnam.

[dps]

Paris 1919 is a great book describing in great detail how the British and French really screwed things up.  The American points could have worked if:

a) As, Grumbler pointed out they actually stuck to the game plan; and

b) If they had stuck to it, they had some idea going into the talks what they were doing, rather then being influenced by whatever delegations were able to make it to Paris from the areas where new borders and nations were being created.

If, with hindsight, we could go back and redo one historical event this would have to rank near the top of the list.

As an aside... I was impressed when I read in Paris 1919 that Ho Chi Minh was working as a dishwasher in Paris at the time of the Treaty conference and he submitted a petition to the great powers involved for the recognition of an independent Vietnam.

I'm not sure about the "working as a dishwasher" part, but he was in Paris, and tried to get Vietnam (and other colonial areas) some representation/consideration at the peace talks.  Wilson would have none of it--he was all for self-determination, but only for white people.

[Lettow77]

 More like he could not anger his french allies more than he already was.