Converting to Judaism in ancient times

[crazy canuck]

No not all Early Christian sects did.  No doubt there were some sects that wished to exclude even what Chrsitians call the Old Testament since they wished to avoid any Jewish "taint" but it still made it in - given that the argument for Jesus being the Messiah rested entirely on a particular interpretation of the Jewish Prophets.

Well by 'Talmud' at that time you really mean the oral tradition.  It wasn't necessary to write all that stuff down while the Kingdom of Judah was still around.  I think the Talmud didn't start to get written down until the year 200, well after the Christian-Jewish split.

So there was no Talmud around for them to reject.

Yes. Exactly.

[Valmy]

However I can think of several, including the Mormons, to this day, that have banned people from worshipping on the basis of their sexuality.

Yep and that is a BIG reason (especially they way the Mormons usually are about it 'oh I like homosexuals just fine but my religion requires me to be a bigot') I dislike them today.

[crazy canuck]

Your historical point is of course correct, but I'm not sure how it's important today.

Its because to call yourself a Christain continues to be to call yourself someone who is separate and apart from the wider community and unfortunately continues to animate politics to a great degree.

The day public policy is not dictated by what people percieve as the correct biblical interpretation is the day I will agree with you that the word Christian (and all that is wrapped up in that word) has become meaningless.

Case in point.  Doctors who consider themselves christian perform abortions.  Others who think they are better christians seek to kill those same doctors.

Do you really need to go to the "killing abortion doctors" point?  Shouldnt there be a Godwin's-type law about it when discussing religion?

And I never said the word Christian is meaningless.  As you point out it if far from meaningless - it in fact has a great deal of meaning for a lot of people.  It has so much meaning for people that I don't see how I can dictate how others would chose to use that word to describe themselves.

Ok, if you dont like the example of Chrstians killing doctors who perform abortions how about the example of Christians disagreeing over whether homosexuals should be married in church ceremonies, whether homosexuals can act as church leaders etc.

The problem you face is that the definition of what is and who is Christian is still relevant today.  You cant ignore the two thousand years of history and pretend it doesnt have an impact of your faith today.

Definitions are important.

[Valmy]

Mormons don't say that black people are damned. - They were banned from the priesthood - not "damned".

Brigham Young said the Black people could not be redeemed so therefore could not be priests.  Now...being unredeemable may not be the same as damned but close enough for me.

[PRC]

Yep and that is a BIG reason (especially they way the Mormons usually are about it 'oh I like homosexuals just fine but my religion requires me to be a bigot') I dislike them today.

Hey I don't disagree.  I don't associate with any religion or Atheism (because I find most Atheists as stalwart in their unbelief as any religious person is a zealot for their belief).

Anyways I could care less who's a Christian and who's not.  Like I said, I work with some Mormons, go fly fishing with one of them all the time and he says he's a Christian... so good for him... I'm not going to tell him he's a heretic because i'm probably one too and I don't care one way or the other because it's all a pile of shit anyways.

[PRC]

Mormons don't say that black people are damned. - They were banned from the priesthood - not "damned".

Brigham Young said the Black people could not be redeemed so therefore could not be priests.  Now...being unredeemable may not be the same as damned but close enough for me.

If that's close enough for you why isn't them accepting Christ as their saviour close enough?

[Barrister]

So if someone asks me about Christianity and I claim to be one and make on up about raping virgins being a virtue and that we should eat the flesh of the dead in our community then that's perfectly fine and that belief, spurious as it is, must be recognized as just as Christian as any other sect?  Sounds a bit silly to me.

I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find some kind of crazy Christian that believes in cannibalism and raping virgins.  My point really  is that you should focus on on how evil and moronic those beliefs are, rather than trying to focus on "well they're not real Christians then".

Face it - a lot of Christians have done a lot of evil things over the years.  As a member of the community of faith we (as Christians) have to recognize that, and just try and deny it by saying "someone who would do that isn't a real Christian".

[Barrister]

Was there any need to be that insulting Jacob?

Probably not, so I apologize.

[Barrister]

Mormons don't say that black people are damned. - They were banned from the priesthood - not "damned".

Brigham Young said the Black people could not be redeemed so therefore could not be priests.  Now...being unredeemable may not be the same as damned but close enough for me.

And remember every male mormon is a 'priest'.  By saying they could not be priests they were saying they could not be members of the church.

[Valmy]

If that's close enough for you why isn't them accepting Christ as their saviour close enough?

I came into this discussion at an odd time.  I was only saying that claiming Christ is divine is not sufficient to be a Christian.  If a Hindu adds Christ to his list of Gods he is still not a Christian.  But I am not necessarily saying Mormons are not.  I just think their beliefs and traditions are abhorrent.

[Valmy]

And remember every male mormon is a 'priest'.  By saying they could not be priests they were saying they could not be members of the church.

That is an important point but I did not want to get into it.

I think you can be a man and be a member of the church and choose not to be a priest but almost all men are I believe.

[Barrister]

If that's close enough for you why isn't them accepting Christ as their saviour close enough?

I came into this discussion at an odd time.  I was only saying that claiming Christ is divine is not sufficient to be a Christian.  If a Hindu adds Christ to his list of Gods he is still not a Christian.  But I am not necessarily saying Mormons are not.  I just think their beliefs and traditions are abhorrent.

It depends - does your Hindu describe himself as a Christian?

Muslims feel that Christ was a prophet, but deny his divinity.  Many in the western world describe thesmselves as Christian, but feel that Christ as a great teacher and not the son of God (hell the onetime leader of my Church denied Christ's divinity).  The difference is what a person feels about themself, and how they describe themselves.
On the very outside fringes you're

[Valmy]

It depends - does your Hindu describe himself as a Christian?

No he probably would not.

Hence there is something a bit more than simply considering Christ a divine figure.

Many in the western world describe thesmselves as Christian, but feel that Christ as a great teacher and not the son of God (hell the onetime leader of my Church denied Christ's divinity)

Hey I think you are talking about me.

Though I would never call myself a Christian unless I was feeling particularly lazy.

[crazy canuck]

On the very outside fringes you're

Refraining from calling him names was very Christian of you....

[Malthus]

No, they claim to be a "Jew for Jesus".  You'd have to live under a rock to not understand where they are coming from.

Again if they want to use the word Jew - let them!  I'm not saying you have to let them pray at your local Temple or anything.

Their purpose is to convert Jews by claiming that you can be Jewish and still believe Jesus is the Messiah.

I agree that it is ludicrous, but that doesn't change what they are doing.

If someone believes they are Jewish and believe in Jesus, who am I to tell them that their belief is wrong?

If someone believes they are God I could not care less, if they keep it to themselves. The point is that Jews for Jesus wants other people to accept them as "Jews" for the purpose of misleading them.

Now, only the profoundly stupid are likely to be actually mislead it is true. Thing is that to most 'real' Jews it is fucking annoying to have Christians engage in these antics, claiming a kinship by religion or ethnicity that is non-existant - like having a particularly obnoxious marketer claiming to be your aunt for the purpose of selling you shit you don't want, when in reality the person is descended from folks who used to hunt your ancestors down and kill them on occasion.

If I thought these clowns were in any way sincere in believing they were both Christians and Jews at the same time, I'd think they were excentric but basically I would not care. Thing is that they aren't, it is all a sham designed specifically to target Jews for conversion.