Converting to Judaism in ancient times

[Valmy]

Those beliefs, at their base, anti-black, were pretty standard for the times and is still the norm in a lot of places.

That is bullshit there was nothing standard about that belief.  That is very extreme even by the standards of the times.

The worst part is that they still hold onto obviously bigoted beliefs simply because that is what they are told to believe.  I mean they are very nice about it they say 'I am sorry but that is what my faith says therefore I must oppose you'.  Yet they have a history of getting divine intervention to volt face whenever it becomes expedient.

Also I do not think they made this "progress" because they felt it was wrong but just because it was making them look bad, like the polygamy thing.

So yeah I don't think saying all black people were damned until 1978 (I mean 1978 FFS?) is particularly impressive.

[AnchorClanker]

Both Spellus and Marti hate Mormons. Therefore, they sound fun.

And Ank.  Although I should clarify that I despise Mormonism and not Mormons.
Very important difference.

[AnchorClanker]

You guys are acting like there is some legal definition of "Christian".  Unless you are some flavor of believing Christian yourself, I don't understand the reason behind wanting to denigrate the Mormons.  Their theology is radically different from mainstream Christianity, yes, but I'm not sure why that makes them "not Christian".  They still believe in God and that Jesus was the son of God.

So?  They've cheerfully followed the teachings of a half-literate conman and produced an indigenous American religion that looks a lot like Christianity, but is clearly in a league of their own.  Just because it has Christian flavorings, that doesn't make it Christian.

[The Minsky Moment]

Minsky and Malthus; if this hypothetical "Jew for Jesus" followed all the Mosaic laws and respected (and studied) the Talmud in addition to the new testement, and was matrlineally okay, could they then be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously? I think the Ebionites and earliest Christians would take exception to the idea that the two religious labels are totally mutually exclusive.

I think valmy's posts satisfactorily respond to this question.

Hypothetically, the answer could be yes.  In fact, I knew someone who took this Ebionite position although eventually they ended up in mainline Judaism.  From the Judaic perspective, to the extent such a person believed in the divinity of Christ, they would be guilty of the very serious sin of idolotry.  However, you can commit terrible sins and still remain Jewish.  From the other side, I can't see why a voluntary decision to obey Mosaic or even talmudic restrictions would make one non-Christian. although some sects may take different positions.

As a practical matter, "Jews for Jesus" are not neo-Ebionites: they are professional proseltyzers using a deceptive marketing gimmick.

[PRC]

That is bullshit there was nothing standard about that belief.  That is very extreme even by the standards of the times.

The worst part is that they still hold onto obviously bigoted beliefs simply because that is what they are told to believe.  I mean they are very nice about it they say 'I am sorry but that is what my faith says therefore I must oppose you'.  Yet they have a history of getting divine intervention to volt face whenever it becomes expedient.

Also I do not think they made this "progress" because they felt it was wrong but just because it was making them look bad, like the polygamy thing.

So yeah I don't think saying all black people were damned until 1978 (I mean 1978 FFS?) is particularly impressive.

Blacks were banned from the Mormon priesthood from the 1848 until 1978 and from worshipping in a Mormon Temple.  They weren't "damned". 

Second to that 1978 shouldn't be so shocking... US had segregation issues in the 60's and 70's in many areas.

[Barrister]

You guys are acting like there is some legal definition of "Christian".  Unless you are some flavor of believing Christian yourself, I don't understand the reason behind wanting to denigrate the Mormons.  Their theology is radically different from mainstream Christianity, yes, but I'm not sure why that makes them "not Christian".  They still believe in God and that Jesus was the son of God.

So?  They've cheerfully followed the teachings of a half-literate conman and produced an indigenous American religion that looks a lot like Christianity, but is clearly in a league of their own.  Just because it has Christian flavorings, that doesn't make it Christian.

I don't disagree with your assessment of Mormon history, and your general distaste of mormonism.

But I don't get why you would reject them as Christians?  Yes they have major doctrinal differences with most of the rest of Christianity.  But they accept Christ as saviour, use the image of the cross, and even call themselves "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints".

What purpose is there in denying a Mormon in Christian other than to be insulting to that person?

[Jacob]

If someone believes they are Jewish and believe in Jesus, who am I to tell them that their belief is wrong?

You're a proddie Canadian prosecutor with Ukranian pretensions.  So yeah, your opinion on the matter doesn't signify much.  However, it doesn't follow that every other opinion on the subject is as worthless as yours

[The Minsky Moment]

I can't think of any other mainstream religion that banned people from worshipping on the basis of race as late as the 1970s . . .

[PRC]

I can't think of any other mainstream religion that banned people from worshipping on the basis of race as late as the 1970s . . .

However I can think of several, including the Mormons, to this day, that have banned people from worshipping on the basis of their sexuality.

[Barrister]

If someone believes they are Jewish and believe in Jesus, who am I to tell them that their belief is wrong?

You're a proddie Canadian prosecutor with Ukranian pretensions.  So yeah, your opinion on the matter doesn't signify much.  However, it doesn't follow that every other opinion on the subject is as worthless as yours

Was there any need to be that insulting Jacob?

[Jacob]

Uh, no?

If someone asks me to tell them about Christianity I'll tell them about Christ, the Gospels, the early church fathers, the Reformation, that kind of thing.

If they ask me what the definition of a Christian is, I can tell them what I believe.  But I'm just a man.  It's up to God to judge who is or is not a Christian, not me.

Perhaps this is just a question of perspective.  I know I've mentioned I belong to a fairly liberal denomination, the United Church of Canada.  The UCC does not have any definitive declaration of faith, and instead strives towards inclusiveness.

So if someone asks me about Christianity and I claim to be one and make on up about raping virgins being a virtue and that we should eat the flesh of the dead in our community then that's perfectly fine and that belief, spurious as it is, must be recognized as just as Christian as any other sect?  Sounds a bit silly to me.

[Jacob]

Was there any need to be that insulting Jacob?

Probably not, so I apologize.

The point remains, just because you don't care who calls themselves Jewish doesn't mean that anyone who calls themselves Jewish are - especially in cases where it is an underhanded gimmick to convert people to Christianity that has nothing to do with Judaism.

[jimmy olsen]

I know everything is equal and I should never use my brain and have an opinion about anything I know.

Holding onto obviously false and evil beliefs until your church fathers suddenly turn around and say the words have changed is a cause for contempt not applause.  Your mileage may vary.

Those beliefs, at their base, anti-black, were pretty standard for the times and is still the norm in a lot of places.  I'm surprised you think that to suddenly turn around and say we've changed those beliefs is a cause for contempt... most would call that progress.

Really? What other large, or even moderately sized Christain sect argued that Blacks were damned simply for their skin color?

The closest thing I can thing of is southern evangelicals arguing the Curse of Cannan condemned blacks to perpetual slavery, but even they didn't argue that they were damned.

[PRC]

I can't think of any other mainstream religion that banned people from worshipping on the basis of race as late as the 1970s . . .

Second to that there must have been some Church segregation in the US South into the seventies no?  Possibly still is? 

[PRC]

Really? What other large, or even moderately sized Christain sect argued that Blacks were damned simply for their skin color?

The closest thing I can thing of is southern evangelicals arguing the Curse of Cannan condemned blacks to perpetual slavery, but even they didn't argue that they were damned.

Mormons don't say that black people are damned. - They were banned from the priesthood - not "damned".