Ze burkini is a problem with Ze France

[merithyn]

of course the core of the issue is that it can be reasonably suspected that those muslims women are not asking it because of those reasons but because their men (usually) don't allow them to mix because it's against their retarded religion.
In such a case the solution isn't segregation as it is giving in to those medieval views, the solution is making it clear to these men that they're living in the civilised world and that if they don't like it they should pack their bags and go back whence they came from.
The Maghreb and such is big enough as it is, there's no need to make it bigger by adding europe to it.

To clarify, at no time was I addressing the Muslim concerns in my replies. But I will now.

I disagree vehemently with extreme Muslims and their code regarding women. However, I have no problem with the idea of moderates of any religion wishing to maintain modesty when around the opposite gender. I know plenty of religions who do not believe in going to public swimming places because they don't believe that men and women should see one another in such a state of undress. That is, to me, a valid concern for these people.

Yes, extreme Muslims take it far beyond that. Yes, extreme Muslims should be hung from the rafters after being eaten alive by rabid dogs. But the concept behind the women only/men only swimming times is sound, even if it's being said to be for one group only.

[Valdemar]

I saw a couple of these at the local pool last weekend.

I admit to staring for a short time, but like everyone else, I got over it fairly quickly. Not sure why the French have a problem with it, other than the French have a serious problem with the burka, too. Basically, the French have a problem with the Islamic religion, it seems.

Actually the French have a problem with religious symbols in general atm. They try very hard to be secular in a predominant Catholic nation. They on paper banned ALL religious dressings in public schools as well.

As Sheilb points out, it is their secularism at work. Just think of the fact that church weddings of any kinds are for show and not legally biding, only City hall weddings have legal significance.

V

[Valmy]

Then it seems only fair that Muslims should want Grallon and Marty killed since they call for them to be exterminated also.

I  am not saying that Grallon and Marty are not a tad histrionic and over the top I am just saying their antipathy is not hard to understand.

[Valmy]

Yes, extreme Muslims take it far beyond that. Yes, extreme Muslims should be hung from the rafters after being eaten alive by rabid dogs. But the concept behind the women only/men only swimming times is sound, even if it's being said to be for one group only.

Well we will just have to agree to disagree on that.  I am generally not a fan of boys and girls only things.  I mean come now haven't  women been working for decades to break up male only schools and male only golf clubs and the whole deal?  Now you want to turn back the clock?

But hey just because I am opposed to something doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

[swallow]

I think she's just trying to cause trouble.  The people who wear burkinis are just trying to get a swim in without causing trouble at home.  I can't imagine any genuine very religious woman even contemplating wearing a burkini - I remember a friend who had become muslim, ranting against how leggings were too sexy for girls to wear, and those burkinis are much more revealing. 

[Malthus]

Yes, extreme Muslims take it far beyond that. Yes, extreme Muslims should be hung from the rafters after being eaten alive by rabid dogs. But the concept behind the women only/men only swimming times is sound, even if it's being said to be for one group only.

I think there are two reasons to oppose single-sex only swim times:

1. It is imposing an inconvenience, however minor, in that these are swim times that would presumably otherwise be available to the general public. Whereas before (for example) men and women could swim at all the public hours, now men and women are alternatively precluded during "same sex only" hours - all for the dubious benefit of preserving modesty, which most of the public doesn't care about.

2. Another concern here is that it is turning back the clock. In the bad old days, even bars had seperate entrances for women. 

[swallow]

I've actually been looking for something similar to the top (no hood) for ages, to stop sunburn on the beech - I wonder if speedo will bring out a version that actually fits?

[garbon]

I  am not saying that Grallon and Marty are not a tad histrionic and over the top I am just saying their antipathy is not hard to understand.

But it is. I don't really see how they get so carried away as to indulge in such irrational thoughts and behavior.

[Valdemar]

I've actually been looking for something similar to the top (no hood) for ages, to stop sunburn on the beech - I wonder if speedo will bring out a version that actually fits?

They actually exists I have them for my kids for the very same reason, to avoid sunburn. They are Aussie and called IIRC sun block and or shark skin

V

[Sheilbh]

1. It is imposing an inconvenience, however minor, in that these are swim times that would presumably otherwise be available to the general public. Whereas before (for example) men and women could swim at all the public hours, now men and women are alternatively precluded during "same sex only" hours - all for the dubious benefit of preserving modesty, which most of the public doesn't care about.

In the UK public pools can be reserved for private groups as well (schools, water aerobics, pool parties) that aren't open to the public.  What's generally the case, I think, is that they say every Saturday afternoon is open to the public and every day between, say, 5-7 is open to the public but that apart from that it varies depending on bookings. 

Though I agree.  As I say I'd only support this sort of thing if it didn't get in the way or conflict with the pool's general service to the public.

I remember a friend who had become muslim, ranting against how leggings were too sexy for girls to wear, and those burkinis are much more revealing.

This is true.  One of my other observations of Edgware Road is how many young Muslim girls seem to interpret modesty rather interestingly.  They seem to think it's about not showing flesh, so a top that goes to your wrists and isn't too low cut and trousers or a skirt that goes to your ankles.  However they also seem to think that the tightness of the clothes is entire irrelevent

It reminds me of a bit in Naguib Mahfuz's Cairo Trilogy (a really great book), which is set in a very conservative household in Cairo at the turn of the century.  The patriarch hasn't allowed his wife to leave the house unchaperoned except for occassional visits to her mother.  He is upbraided for this by his friends but, a man's home is his castle.

He goes on a business trip and the children of all ages convince his wife to leave the house with her youngest son.  He'll take her to the shrine of the martyr Hossein which she's always wanted to visit.  Anyway she's getting ready to leave in a long dress with the veil over her face and the maid Umm Hanafi brings her an outdoor cloak, which she's never needed before.  The cloak's meant to further obscure her.

Umm Hanafi teaches her how to pull the cloak around her and the children notice that the way it's pulled reveals her curves and the shape of her body in far more detail than if she'd just worn the dress

[Sheilbh]

I've actually been looking for something similar to the top (no hood) for ages, to stop sunburn on the beech - I wonder if speedo will bring out a version that actually fits?

They actually exists I have them for my kids for the very same reason, to avoid sunburn. They are Aussie and called IIRC sun block and or shark skin

V

Yeah I've seen loads of them on kids in the sun.  I've never seen an adult version though

[Valdemar]

I've actually been looking for something similar to the top (no hood) for ages, to stop sunburn on the beech - I wonder if speedo will bring out a version that actually fits?

They actually exists I have them for my kids for the very same reason, to avoid sunburn. They are Aussie and called IIRC sun block and or shark skin

V

Yeah I've seen loads of them on kids in the sun.  I've never seen an adult version though

They had a variety of sizes on the page when I ordred, incl. two piece sets in at least large teenage sizes...

Dunno if that will suffice for adults though

V

[Malthus]

In the UK public pools can be reserved for private groups as well (schools, water aerobics, pool parties) that aren't open to the public.  What's generally the case, I think, is that they say every Saturday afternoon is open to the public and every day between, say, 5-7 is open to the public but that apart from that it varies depending on bookings. 

Though I agree.  As I say I'd only support this sort of thing if it didn't get in the way or conflict with the pool's general service to the public.

It is similar here - public pools are reserved for classes and the like some hours, and are open to the general public other hours. Sometimes the hours are segregated by use - some hours only serious swimming of laps is allowed, others families can bring the kids to play.

Having a seperate set of segregations based on sex would cut down on what hours are available.

[Malthus]

Yeah I've seen loads of them on kids in the sun.  I've never seen an adult version though

We have something like that for Carl.

[Sheilbh]

It is similar here - public pools are reserved for classes and the like some hours, and are open to the general public other hours. Sometimes the hours are segregated by use - some hours only serious swimming of laps is allowed, others families can bring the kids to play.

Having a seperate set of segregations based on sex would cut down on what hours are available.

I suppose the way I see it is better to have a couple of hours a week per sex in the non-public hours than, say, groups reserving the pool on a gender basis.  Which would eat up more time.

We've got the serious swimmers, families, elderly and then in private hours schools classes, mother and child groups, school lifeguard clubs and so on.  And then general public.  So yeah it sounds much the same.