Ze burkini is a problem with Ze France

[Valmy]

I disagree.  I think the vast majority of Muslim women would be uncomfortable in a bikini or swimsuit with lots of men around.

Well then get that Burkini thing if it bothers them that much.

I swear to God it is not like a freaking swimsuit is that much more revealing than shorts and a T-shirt.  Put on a bathing suit....wear a pair of shorts over them.  Tons of women do it.

And if it is true that even liberal muslim women are freaked out to swim in the presence of men...well that reflects very badly on Muslims but I do not think that is even true.  I worked out and swam at the UT student gym and the Muslim women there had no problem working out and swimming with us even though they covered themselves up and they were mostly foreigners they were not even US citizens, just here for school.  If they LIVE in the west they should be able to go farther than students who are actually from the Middle East and will go back there.

[Sheilbh]

Well then get that Burkini thing if it bothers them that much.

But I don't know if that's allowed :p

In the UK it probably is because we don't force men into Speedos.

I swear to God it is not like a freaking swimsuit is that much more revealing than shorts and a T-shirt.  Put on a bathing suit....wear a pair of shorts over them.  Tons of women do it.

I don't know my friends won't wear trousers or a skirt higher than the knee or full short t-shirts either.

And if it is true that even liberal muslim women are freaked out to swim in the presence of men...well that reflects very badly on Muslims but I do not think that is even true.  I worked out and swam at the UT student gym and the Muslim women there had no problem working out and swimming with us even though they covered themselves up and they were mostly foreigners they were not even US citizens, just here for school.  If they LIVE in the west they should be able to go farther than students who are actually from the Middle East and will go back there.

It's not that they're freaked out.  They don't want to do it because they think it would be immodest or revealing of them - and if they've spent much of their lives dressed 'modestly' it probably would be awkward.

Now, personally, I don't mind that.  I don't think the headscarf and 'modesty' is necessarily some horrible Middle-Eastern value.  I have issues with the niqab and burqa and obviously with women being coerced but, in general I don't assume women wearing the headscarf are shackled to the Mid-East or oppressed by their male relatives.  My assumption is that they're trying to live what they believe to be a religious life as well as they can.

Yeah a lot of Middle Eastern Muslims behave differently here than they would at home.  Gulf Arabs have a pretty dreadful reputation for coming to London getting trashed and being lecherous with women.  The weirdest experience I've had was drinking in a bar with a Saudi Prince (he went to Eton with a uni friend of mine).  He had no problem with the gays or anything like that and yet he's a member of a despicably hateful ruling family.  He was wearing quite low slung jeans and I noticed he was wearing pink boxers with pictures of cowboys on them.  I thought it was an odd choice.

[Valmy]

Now, personally, I don't mind that.  I don't think the headscarf and 'modesty' is necessarily some horrible Middle-Eastern value.  I have issues with the niqab and burqa and obviously with women being coerced but, in general I don't assume women wearing the headscarf are shackled to the Mid-East or oppressed by their male relatives.  My assumption is that they're trying to live what they believe to be a religious life as well as they can.

Well I have a hard time seeing how if I moved to China and was really open to being Chinese but still refuse to do things the Chinese way, how I would NOT be shackled to how I did things in the US?  But anyway I actually do not even mind if they wear the freaking full burqa I like to see them out and about with the rest of us Americans.  They might never be one of us, and that happens alot for first generation types, but her daughters might.

The old Indian ladies still go everywhere in their Saris but I see their kids fitting in great.

[Malthus]

The vast majority of people in the communities under discussion are not conservatively religious Muslim women.

Also, in point of fact, many Muslim women who come here to Canada at least rather welcome the absence of seperate-but-equal provisions for "modesty", which (if provided) have a way of becomming mandatory.

Well here, in my experience, it's only areas with a very high Muslim or very high Orthodox Jewish community that have segregated hours.  For example Bethnal Green which is famous for it, because it was the first place that had them, has an over 50% Muslim population.

As I say my experience in the UK is that even liberal Muslim women are uncomfortable showing off much flesh.  It's not necessarily related to conservatism.  Which is why I don't object to it, I oppose the religious conservatives and hardliners presuming to speak for all Muslims in such a way that forces the liberals to change their behaviour,or be classed as almost un-Muslim.  I don't think this is one of those cases because it would be of as much use to liberal as to conservatives.

Do you have any examples of those provisions becoming mandatory?

What I mean by "mandatory" is exactly the phenominon you mention - once "Muslim segrigation" is an established practice, it has the tendency to force liberal Muslim women to conform or be seen as "non Muslim".

I have exactly the same opinion in respect to Orthodox Jews who don't care to associate with women (if men) or men (if women).

There is a simple solution: if they care enough, they can patronize a private pool that is set up to their specifications.

I know lots of liberal Muslim women, Persians mostly; my best friend is married to one. She would be horrified at the suggestion that Muslim women be segrigated, it would smack of exactly the sort of thing her family fled Iran to escape.

[Jacob]

Can I have white only hours then?  If the community desires it and they want to be free of those pesky minorities why wouldn't that be reasonable?  The desires of the community must always be accomodated after all.

I know they were in my State for awhile.

So long as the sexists must be accomodated the racists might as well to.

So you are really saying "some women are uncomfortable wearing little clothes around men and would like to be able to swim without feeling sexually objectified" is equivalent to "some white people want to swim by themselves because they think black people are worth less than them and that social status should be enforced"?

[Valmy]

But really this is less about immigration than just about my view that the government should not be restricting based on gender, national origin, etc... except when there is a compelling reason to do so.

Even the communities in this country who have basically come here to colonize little Germanies and Mexicos instead of really become Americans have come around eventually in a few generations.  The Muslims may be a tougher case simple because they also have a religious thing going on but I am not that worried about them managing to stay cut off forever.

[Jacob]

I swear to God it is not like a freaking swimsuit is that much more revealing than shorts and a T-shirt.  Put on a bathing suit....wear a pair of shorts over them.  Tons of women do it.

You will probably find that many of the women who are uncomfortable with mixed gender swimming tend to wear clothing that covers more than shorts and a t-shirt in most other contexts.

[Valmy]

So you are really saying "some women are uncomfortable wearing little clothes around men and would like to be able to swim without feeling sexually objectified" is equivalent to "some white people want to swim by themselves because they think black people are worth less than them and that social status should be enforced"?

Yes.  They are both based on irrational prejudice IMO.  Some people feel uncomfortable around other races but that is too bad if you go to the public pool.

[Jacob]

What I mean by "mandatory" is exactly the phenominon you mention - once "Muslim segrigation" is an established practice, it has the tendency to force liberal Muslim women to conform or be seen as "non Muslim".

I have exactly the same opinion in respect to Orthodox Jews who don't care to associate with women (if men) or men (if women).

It's a valid point, but I don't think the lines should be drawn around whether it is possible to live like that at all but to encourage

There is a simple solution: if they care enough, they can patronize a private pool that is set up to their specifications.

Of course, that is the simple solution.  But if a pool or community centre is set up to serve a community, if there's a demand for a specific service why shouldn't it be offered.  If, for example (made up numbers) they find that 30% of regular pool users would enjoy a women-only swim and it would also entice an additional increase of 50% in new participants from the community (assuming that those are the sort of numbers that are compelling to management of the pool trying to fulfill a "serve the community" mandate), why not?

I know lots of liberal Muslim women, Persians mostly; my best friend is married to one. She would be horrified at the suggestion that Muslim women be segrigated, it would smack of exactly the sort of thing her family fled Iran to escape.

I think there's a significant difference between an officially mandated morality from the highest tiers of government and enforced by laws and special police units (Iran) and extending community services to a community in line with their personal values by offering gender segregated swimming once a week for two hours (the hypothetical scenario being discussed).

[Jacob]

Yes.  They are both based on irrational prejudice IMO.  Some people feel uncomfortable around other races but that is too bad if you go to the public pool.

And you don't question yourself questioning yourself the slightest when you as a man tell women that it's irrational of them to feel uncomfortable hanging around you and other men wearing nothing by skintight lycra?

[Sheilbh]

Well I have a hard time seeing how if I moved to China and was really open to being Chinese but still refuse to do things the Chinese way, how I would NOT be shackled to how I did things in the US?  But anyway I actually do not even mind if they wear the freaking full burqa I like to see them out and about with the rest of us Americans.  They might never be one of us, and that happens alot for first generation types, but her daughters might.

I disagree with this because it seems to me that you're suggesting that certain Islamic values that have been adapted by different cultures in different ways, such as modesty are somehow antithetical to being Western.  So a woman who choose to wear a headscarf can never be 'one of us'.  I disagree with that fundamentally.

But, I think that it's at base a level of what we mean by integration and multi-culturalism.

In practice we don't I don't think want immigrants to entirely assimilate and become 'just like us'.  I think the distinctiveness of different cultural and religious communities is something we enjoy too much and have enjoyed for too long for us to actually mean it when we say we want them to become like us.  It seems to me that what actually happens is that the immigrants' culture eventually becomes a part of our own.

What I mean by this is that if Jews were just like us there would be no 'Jewish humour', despite the fact that that's as important a part of American culture as black music.  Similarly in the UK we don't want Indians to stop being Indian because the chicken tikka masala is our national dish.  It's also a core part of British and an Anglo-Indian culture in that it doesn't exist in India.  It was something created for British palates that's since been re-invented by world-class Anglo-Indian chefs working in London and deli.

Salman Rushdie had an argument with Ngugi wa Thi'ongo (sp?) in the 80s I think.  Ngugi said that he was no longer writing literature in English because English was the language he was taught in a colonial system, he was separated from his village because he'd done well in some test and was basically sent to a colonial school.  He writes about the class reading Wordsworth's daffodils poem and none of them knowing what a daffodil was and no-one explaining it.  Apparently the most popular guess was a small fish.  Anyway he said that he was going to spend the rest of his life writing in, I think, Swahili and encouraging Swahili literature.

Rushdie argued against this and said that English wasn't just a colonial language anymore.  He had a great line that English is an Indian literary language.  In response to that Derek Walcott said, 'and Indian is now a West Indian literary language'.  I'd add that now Indian English is an English literary language.  The work of writers like Rushdie from the Indian sub-continent, from Africa and from the West Indies is up there with anything else being written in the English language and yet it's different from English-English.  But I think we enjoy and have benefited from that.

So I don't think that full-on integration is possible and I don't think anyone really desires it.  I don't think we want to see Chinatowns turn into Little England.  By an equal degree I don't think we want to see our 'values' (I'm not sure I believe in Western values except as a term so broad as to be useless) overthrown, or communities ghettoised, or the rise of Muslim/Indian/Sikh/Chinese chauvinists within that community dominating them and making any interation impossible.

I suppose what I wonder is what do we mean by integration?  What is it we actually want?  Is it for women not to wear the burqa and for Gurdwaras to disguise themselves as normal buildings as Catholic Churches did in the 18th and early 19th century? 

My suspicion is we want people who behave and believe differently and have a different cultural perspective and even challenge our values but that they don't detest them.  But I think that's an insufficient answer.  I don't know.

The old Indian ladies still go everywhere in their Saris but I see their kids fitting in great.

It's not a religious thing.  Sikhs old and young wear turbans.

There is a simple solution: if they care enough, they can patronize a private pool that is set up to their specifications.

I think local authority pools are designed to serve the community they're in and that's what they should do, not force people into joining private sector pools.  I think this is especially the case in predominately immigrant communities because these are among the poorest in the country, so that's just not practical for them.

Would you object to women's only groups reserving a public pool for an hour?  As, say, schools do for classes during term-time?

I know lots of liberal Muslim women, Persians mostly; my best friend is married to one. She would be horrified at the suggestion that Muslim women be segrigated, it would smack of exactly the sort of thing her family fled Iran to escape.

What about that Muslim women choose to swim with just other women?  As I say I'm not saying that the pools should only have segregated swimming hours but they should offer the opportunity if there's the demand in the community, as with other forms of segregation.

My own friends are generally from Malaysia, Bangladesh and South Africa (South African coloureds) so they don't come from the strictest of Islamic societies like Iran or Saudi. 

[Iormlund]

The best part about this whole burkini business is I'm pretty sure I could easily swim for a couple hours without anyone taking a good look at me. Just go at certain hours when there's hardly anyone (I used to swim at 7 AM) and drop the towel close to the pool. Most swimmers will be minding their own business instead of waiting to see how fat your ass is.

[Jacob]

The best part about this whole burkini business is I'm pretty sure I could easily swim for a couple hours without anyone taking a good look at me. Just go at certain hours when there's hardly anyone (I used to swim at 7 AM) and drop the towel close to the pool. Most swimmers will be minding their own business instead of waiting to see how fat your ass is.

That's the best part? 

[Iormlund]

Sorry, direct translation. But you get what I mean. This is just a non-issue.

[Valmy]

I disagree with this because it seems to me that you're suggesting that certain Islamic values that have been adapted by different cultures in different ways, such as modesty are somehow antithetical to being Western.  So a woman who choose to wear a headscarf can never be 'one of us'.  I disagree with that fundamentally.

Oh a woman can wear a headscarf and be one of us...but they rarely ever do that I can see.  The symbolism is meaningful.

But, I think that it's at base a level of what we mean by integration and multi-culturalism.

Integrating means being an American first, being descended from Italians second.  Multi-culturalism seems to be small colonies of Italians living in America, that I have no interest in really.

In practice we don't I don't think want immigrants to entirely assimilate and become 'just like us'.  I think the distinctiveness of different cultural and religious communities is something we enjoy too much and have enjoyed for too long for us to actually mean it when we say we want them to become like us.  It seems to me that what actually happens is that the immigrants' culture eventually becomes a part of our own.

I think assimilation does not mean some sort of white washing that is ridiculous.  Sure little cultural things transfer over, that is what my entire country is built on.  Things though have to be sacrificed.  But being at home here and being one of the group is easily possible and our culture welcomes them in (most of the time...) and viola Jaron doesn't speak Spanish and is more at home in Oxnard than Monterrey.

What I mean by this is that if Jews were just like us there would be no 'Jewish humour', despite the fact that that's as important a part of American culture as black music.

Yet Jerry Seinfeld and Mel Brooks do not keep Kosher.  There are not that many Yiddish speaking Eastern European cultured Orthodox Jews out there in the entertainment industry.  They had to join the culture first.  That is why it is now a part of the culture and we like to use funny sounding Yiddish words.

Similarly in the UK we don't want Indians to stop being Indian because the chicken tikka masala is our national dish.  It's also a core part of British and an Anglo-Indian culture in that it doesn't exist in India.  It was something created for British palates that's since been re-invented by world-class Anglo-Indian chefs working in London and deli.

Which sort of goes along with what I was trying to say...if they stay separate from us and don't join the club their ability to influence us is a tad smaller no?

Salman Rushdie had an argument with Ngugi wa Thi'ongo (sp?) in the 80s I think.  Ngugi said that he was no longer writing literature in English because English was the language he was taught in a colonial system, he was separated from his village because he'd done well in some test and was basically sent to a colonial school.  He writes about the class reading Wordsworth's daffodils poem and none of them knowing what a daffodil was and no-one explaining it.  Apparently the most popular guess was a small fish.  Anyway he said that he was going to spend the rest of his life writing in, I think, Swahili and encouraging Swahili literature.

Rushdie argued against this and said that English wasn't just a colonial language anymore.  He had a great line that English is an Indian literary language.  In response to that Derek Walcott said, 'and Indian is now a West Indian literary language'.  I'd add that now Indian English is an English literary language.  The work of writers like Rushdie from the Indian sub-continent, from Africa and from the West Indies is up there with anything else being written in the English language and yet it's different from English-English.  But I think we enjoy and have benefited from that.

You seem to be arguing for the very thing I am arguing for.  If nobody integrated how would we then get these weird combos?

So I don't think that full-on integration is possible and I don't think anyone really desires it.  I don't think we want to see Chinatowns turn into Little England.  By an equal degree I don't think we want to see our 'values' (I'm not sure I believe in Western values except as a term so broad as to be useless) overthrown, or communities ghettoised, or the rise of Muslim/Indian/Sikh/Chinese chauvinists within that community dominating them and making any interation impossible.

It is the latter is the primary thing I am talking about.  The parents may wear their Saris and Burkas and be afraid to swim with us now...but their daughters will be fine.  Ergo accomodating those things really isn't necessary.  Likewise I would certainly never outlaw them doing their silly little things keeping men and women separate.  They will come around eventually they always do.

Similarly there was no law preventing huge segments of this country reading German newspapers and living in German towns and maintaining an entirely separate German culture for decades...but the government certainly was not going to have public German Universities and start translating the Constitution into German and having the Congressional debates translated into German for German speaking representatives.  Everybody expected the Germans to eventually come around and very eventually they did (though in their case it took fighting their homeland in two world wars to do it...especially the second one).

I suppose what I wonder is what do we mean by integration?  What is it we actually want?  Is it for women not to wear the burqa and for Gurdwaras to disguise themselves as normal buildings as Catholic Churches did in the 18th and early 19th century?

Women can wear the Burqa but I bet after living in America for a generation or two they will not want to.  Integration is what we want because that is how our society grows and evolves.

My suspicion is we want people who behave and believe differently and have a different cultural perspective and even challenge our values but that they don't detest them.  But I think that's an insufficient answer.  I don't know.

Sure they are welcome so long as they eventually join society at large and not remain some distinct part of it.  I believe they all will which was exactly the point I was making earlier.  I do not think being part of a culture means you are some sort of robot that believes the same thing and has the same perspective on everything either.  But very few groups can come to this country and remain separate forever.

It's not a religious thing.  Sikhs old and young wear turbans.

I never said anything about thinking they were religious but thanks.

The Sikhs and their turbans are a hard case because while you can easily be a Muslim woman and not wear a burqa or a headscarf being a Sikh and not wearing the turban is something else.  We shall see.

I think local authority pools are designed to serve the community they're in and that's what they should do, not force people into joining private sector pools.  I think this is especially the case in predominately immigrant communities because these are among the poorest in the country, so that's just not practical for them.

I fail to see how the pools existing free and open to all is somehow forcing people to do anything.  We are providing them a service for free, I fail to feel too guilty for not enforcing their own cultural values for them.

Would you object to women's only groups reserving a public pool for an hour?  As, say, schools do for classes during term-time?

I have never heard of such a thing.  The pool is public why wouldn't the class just show up and use it?  Why would they reserve it?

That makes no sense.  I am baffled...they just close the pool and throw everybody out for private parties over there?  I mean sometimes we have to move to a different section for lap swimming or swim lessons or something but that is weird.

What about that Muslim women choose to swim with just other women?  As I say I'm not saying that the pools should only have segregated swimming hours but they should offer the opportunity if there's the demand in the community, as with other forms of segregation.

Um...what other forms of segregation are you talking about?

As I said our communities demanded all sorts of segregation, yes even gender segregation, but it was ruled unconstitutional and thankfully it remains so.