Ze burkini is a problem with Ze France

[garbon]

I don't know that the Quran specifically says gays should be killed, but it definitely says that homosexuality is terrible.  Indeed the tale of homosexuality and Lot is written in many places in the Quran (with predictably the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed):

007.080
YUSUFALI: We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?
PICKTHAL: And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?
SHAKIR: And (We sent) Lut when he said to his people: What! do you commit an indecency which any one in the world has not done before you?

007.081
YUSUFALI: "For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."
PICKTHAL: Lo! ye come with lust unto men instead of women. Nay, but ye are wanton folk.
SHAKIR: Most surely you come to males in lust besides females; nay you are an extravagant people. 

026.165
YUSUFALI: "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males,
PICKTHAL: What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males,
SHAKIR: What! do you come to the males from among the creatures

026.166
YUSUFALI: "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"
PICKTHAL: And leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are froward folk.
SHAKIR: And leave what your Lord has created for you of your wives? Nay, you are a people exceeding limits.

027.055
YUSUFALI: Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!
PICKTHAL: Must ye needs lust after men instead of women? Nay, but ye are folk who act senselessly.
SHAKIR: What! do you indeed approach men lustfully rather than women? Nay, you are a people who act ignorantly.

027.058
YUSUFALI: And We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)!
PICKTHAL: And We rained a rain upon them. Dreadful is the rain of those who have been warned.
SHAKIR: And We rained on them a rain, and evil was the rain of those who had been warned.

[Grallon]

...

You're not saying every Muslim is a terrorist but that Muslim culture produces terrorists, therefore Muslim culture needs to be absolutely not tolerated anywhere in the West and presumably weakened in the Middle East.

Yes that sums it up.  What made many of these people want to leave their countries of origin was, presumably, a desire to better their lot.  Yet once arrived here, many start agitating to get back some of the very things that made their countries into shitholes; namely an increase of the presence of religion outside the private sphere - or the segregation of the sexes we were discussing - or a generally more conservative attitude when it comes to morality. 

All these exemples were experienced in the past, in one way of another, in most western societies.  But the point is we have strived to move beyond that, to outgrow such vestigial hangups.  Therefore having a large influx of immigrants who have not gone through that process only serves to slow us down, or even revert back, as evidenced by your fiery, if pointed, advocacy of segregation between males and females.




G.

[Iormlund]

We could always take a cue from the Limeys and send them to the States. Just promise Cubans enough toilet paper, and they'll be more than happy to give our Muslims a passport and leave them a few meters from Miami.

[Sheilbh]

Fair enough.  I just think it is understandable that people oppose ideas that are fundamentally bad ideas and not pussy foot around.  Just because I know some Mormons or Scientologists who are nice guys doesn't mean I cannot denounce Mormonism or Scientology.  I honor their right to practice those religions but I certainly do not have to like them.

No I get that.  But I know Muslims who have no issue with the gays and consider themselves Muslim.  I think it's perverse for me to say, 'I don't like Islam for these reasons and, clearly you're not a real Muslim because you're not extreme/fundamentalist enough'.  I don't understand that when, as I say, Islam is a very flexible religion - I think it's even more flexible than Protestantism.  Which doesn't mean you won't get groups declaring other Muslims to be heretics, but that's not important to me.

I don't know that the Quran specifically says gays should be killed, but it definitely says that homosexuality is terrible.

Yeah.  It condemns homosexuality, there's no doubt, but it doesn't set a punishment.  The punishments vary depending on the different Hadith traditions and legal traditions.

Yet once arrived here, many start agitating to get back some of the very things that made their countries into shitholes; namely an increase of the presence of religion outside the private sphere - or the segregation of the sexes we were discussing - or a generally more conservative attitude when it comes to morality.

I don't think the conservative morals or religion is what turned various Middle Eastern kleptocracies into shitholes.  And other parts of the Muslim world aren't doing too badly in comparison with their neighbours.  I mean Malaysia's especially successful.

I don't have problem with religion operating in the public sphere.  I think it should.  I also don't think a more conservative moral attitude would be a bad thing, I've supported it elsewhere.   But then, I don't equate strict secularism and liberal social mores as being our core 'Western values'.

Therefore having a large influx of immigrants who have not gone through that process only serves to slow us down, or even revert back, as evidenced by your fiery, if pointed, advocacy of segregation between males and females.

If your argument is that it's conservatism and public religion that makes you queasy about Muslims then do you also have a problem with Indians, Africans or Poles?  In which case I wonder what it is that's specific to Islam.

I don't support segregation between women.  I support local swimming pools being able to choose, if they so wish, to have a few hours a week of segregated swimming as long as it doesn't interfere with the general service they offer to the community.

[Jacob]

...then there's nothing more to be said. *shrug*

Yet, you keep saying it.

[Jacob]

I mean if Marty cannot be upset at Islam for explicitely stating he should be killed because that would be intolerant...well that is just moronicly tolerant.

Then it seems only fair that Muslims should want Grallon and Marty killed since they call for them to be exterminated also.

[Jacob]

As I say I've been frequenting a lot of Arabic cafes lately and as far as I can tell during the days families visit them, same for the early evening.  During the night they're mostly old men playing backgammon and dates.

They don't have to, they choose to serve their community by allowing women and men to have an hour or two of separate swimming a week.  All sorts of women.  Meanwhile their cafes remain a place of genders mixing and so on.  I don't see the fundamentalist threat.

There you go bringing reality into the discussion again.

[Grallon]

...

I don't have problem with religion operating in the public sphere.  I think it should.  I also don't think a more conservative moral attitude would be a bad thing, I've supported it elsewhere.   But then, I don't equate strict secularism and liberal social mores as being our core 'Western values'.

You can't be serious!  The last time religion had its way here priests were lording it over everyone, calling down the wrath of their moongod over anyone speaking against their teachings.  They used to barge into people's lives telling women to stop wanting a carreer and stay home popping out kids.  Christ!  You're Irish and Ireland wasn't that much different from Quebec in that regard not so long ago.  You should know better!

If your argument is that it's conservatism and public religion that makes you queasy about Muslims then do you also have a problem with Indians, Africans or Poles?  In which case I wonder what it is that's specific to Islam.

Personally I'd stop all immigration from any so-called 'traditional' societies since their citizens seem to have a hard time adjusting to a modern lifestyle.

As for Islam' specificity - it kills!  Plain and simple.  Those christian nutjobs who bomb abortion clinics are sent to jail or executed or put in psychiatric wards when caught.  Muslim nutjobs are hailed as martyrs, heros and freedom fighters...

I don't support segregation between women.  I support local swimming pools being able to choose, if they so wish, to have a few hours a week of segregated swimming as long as it doesn't interfere with the general service they offer to the community.

I can't beleive you don't see that conceding on this point is an opening for further concessions.  Need I remind you the (barely avoided) demand for Sharia based tribunals here a few years ago?

Shades of Chamberlain!




G.

[Grallon]

There you go bringing reality into the discussion again.

We all live the reality of our choosing.  I choose the see the world as it is rather than with rosy eyewear.




G.

[garbon]

Shame that you're looking out a dirty window and can barely see the world.

[Sheilbh]

You can't be serious!  The last time religion had its way here priests were lording it over everyone, calling down the wrath of their moongod over anyone speaking against their teachings.  They used to barge into people's lives telling women to stop wanting a carreer and stay home popping out kids.  Christ!  You're Irish and Ireland wasn't that much different from Quebec in that regard not so long ago.  You should know better!

I've never said that religion should lord over us or that we should be a theocracy.  All I've said is that I think it has a role to play in the public sphere.  I think our discourse is enriched by the religious perspective.

As for Islam' specificity - it kills!  Plain and simple.  Those christian nutjobs who bomb abortion clinics are sent to jail or executed or put in psychiatric wards when caught.  Muslim nutjobs are hailed as martyrs, heros and freedom fighters...

Okay but your views aren't really specific.  Perhaps a little bit harsher on Islam but generally against migration from 'traditional societies' overall?

I can't beleive you don't see that conceding on this point is an opening for further concessions.  Need I remind you the (barely avoided) demand for Sharia based tribunals here a few years ago?

I'd have no problems with Sharia based tribunals on the model of the Beth Din in this country.

Shades of Chamberlain!

Not at all.  We shall fight them on the diving boards, we shall fight them on the tiles, we shall fight them in the showers and we shall never surrender!

[Sheilbh]

We all live the reality of our choosing.  I choose the see the world as it is rather than with rosy eyewear.

Those are just my observations of the area I'm in.  I've not rose-tinted them because I was actually surprised about it.  I expected something like the worst bits of Bradford.  Very few of the men have beards or wear identifiably Middle Eastern clothes either - which is something I expected because it's quite common in Pakistani areas.

[Iormlund]

Hmm Sheilbh, while I oppose vigorously denying the Church or any other religious institution a voice, I can't remember a single instance when they've enriched a discussion. Their argument always boils down to: God/Hod/Zeus says so. Which is both puerile and useless. Perhaps you can put forward some examples ...

[Sheilbh]

Hmm Sheilbh, while I oppose vigorously denying the Church or any other religious institution a voice, I can't remember a single instance when they've enriched a discussion. Their argument always boils down to: God/Hod/Zeus says so. Which is both puerile and useless. Perhaps you can put forward some examples ...

Well that's all their argument will ever boil down to really, but they can still be interesting about it.

I think there's has been a useful and an important voice on the environment, on the developing world, on certain aspects of the ethics of science and, though I disagree with them to some extent, on issues of life.  The debate's maybe different here because, at least, both the Catholic Church and the CofE comment.

I really recommend anything by Jonathan Sacks who's the Chief Rabbi and wonderful commentator:
http://www.chiefrabbi.org/

[garbon]

Not at all.  We shall fight them on the diving boards, we shall fight them on the tiles, we shall fight them in the showers and we shall never surrender!