Ze burkini is a problem with Ze France

[Jacob]

Um...what other forms of segregation are you talking about?

Family swim time, for example.  Or when the pool is reserved for the use of schools.

[Valmy]

Family swim time, for example.  Or when the pool is reserved for the use of schools.

I think I can safely show up at a pool and swim when schools are swimming there and families are using it.  I have yet to be turned away.

But of course that is not segregation since even if I was turned away it would not be because of gender, race, national origin, etc...

[Valmy]

And you don't question yourself questioning yourself the slightest when you as a man tell women that it's irrational of them to feel uncomfortable hanging around you and other men wearing nothing by skintight lycra?

Yes.  What is rationally bad going to happen to them?  Millions of women do that around men everyday and they are just fine.

I would suggest if they do not feel comfortable wearing their bathing suit in public they get another bathing suit or find a way to swim in private.

[Sheilbh]

Oh a woman can wear a headscarf and be one of us...but they rarely ever do that I can see.  The symbolism is meaningful.

I disagree.

You seem to be arguing for the very thing I am arguing for.  If nobody integrated how would we then get these weird combos?

As I say it depends what you mean by integration.  The impression I had, which I may have got wrong, was that you were arguing for a far more maximalist version of integration than I was.

It is the latter is the primary thing I am talking about.  The parents may wear their Saris and Burkas and be afraid to swim with us now...but their daughters will be fine.  Ergo accomodating those things really isn't necessary.  Likewise I would certainly never outlaw them doing their silly little things keeping men and women separate.  They will come around eventually they always do.

I don't think it's fear.  I don't think mixed semi-nudity is anything to do with 'our ways' and I don't think it should be.  And I don't think they will come round to it.  So I've no problem with accomodating it.

Similarly there was no law preventing huge segments of this country reading German newspapers and living in German towns and maintaining an entirely separate German culture for decades...but the government certainly was not going to have public German Universities and start translating the Constitution into German and having the Congressional debates translated into German for German speaking representatives.

I think education's an interesting case.  In theory I support education just being an English thing, except for established international schools or the Lycees in London.  But I'm very aware that 1st and 2nd generation immigrants have a lot of problems achieving in schools because they don't have English as a mother tongue and so I think there should be a degree of state support for them in language other than English to help support them achieving more in an English education system.

Having said that I've no problem with the French-funded Lycee, or European schools in which English is one of 4-5 languages of instruction (as a rule you have x classes in your first language, x in your second language and x in your third language, they're incredible).  I also support schools in Scotland and Wales that are Gaelic or Welsh predominately, but also English.  Indeed I know a guy who never spoke English until he was 8.

Women can wear the Burqa but I bet after living in America for a generation or two they will not want to.  Integration is what we want because that is how our society grows and evolves.

Are the the headscarf and 'modest' dress effectively the same as the burqa in your opinion?

I never said anything about thinking they were religious but thanks.

The Sikhs and their turbans are a hard case because while you can easily be a Muslim woman and not wear a burqa or a headscarf being a Sikh and not wearing the turban is something else.  We shall see.

I didn't mean to sound sarky, I meant that wearing a headscarf is religiously motivated as is wearing a turban.  A sari isn't at all.  So turban and headscarf are better comparison points than headscarf and sari.

I fail to see how the pools existing free and open to all is somehow forcing people to do anything.  We are providing them a service for free, I fail to feel too guilty for not enforcing their own cultural values for them.

They're not free.  I think if we have local government services that fail to acknowledge and respond to its community's social values then they're failing.  To me gender segregation for an hour or two a week is similar to providing halal food in the cafe in a predominately Muslim area.  I don't think the choice should be to not have a service because it refuses to respond to your own cultural demands or go private.  I think that generally speaking the state should be responsive to different communities and offer a wide range, as a large company should.

I have never heard of such a thing.  The pool is public why wouldn't the class just show up and use it?  Why would they reserve it?

That makes no sense.  I am baffled...they just close the pool and throw everybody out for private parties over there?  I mean sometimes we have to move to a different section for lap swimming or swim lessons or something but that is weird.

You can reserve the pool for separate occassions in my experience.  If there's a local water polo club or a mother and children group they can reserve a pool, yeah.  As Malthus and I talked about earlier public pools aren't always open to the public.

Um...what other forms of segregation are you talking about?

The elderly, family groups and so on.

[Sheilbh]

Yes.  What is rationally bad going to happen to them?  Millions of women do that around men everyday and they are just fine.

I would suggest if they do not feel comfortable wearing their bathing suit in public they get another bathing suit or find a way to swim in private.

I mean this in a nice way, but it sounds like you take it as almost a personal affront that women might want to swim without men around.

Is there nothing you do with just male friends?

[Valmy]

The elderly, family groups and so on.

Family groups...how would that work?  They walk up to you and find out if you are related and then boot you out if you are not?

The elderly tend to show up to the pool very early in the morning and while they usually have the run of it there is nothing against the rules of somebody else showing up.

In any case only the elderly would really be segregation.  Again are you telling me if an old persons grandchild wanted to come along and swim the pool would forbid it?

[Sheilbh]

The elderly tend to show up to the pool very early in the morning and while they usually have the run of it there is nothing against the rules of somebody else showing up.

In any case only the elderly would really be segregation.  Again are you telling me if an old persons grandchild wanted to come along and swim the pool would forbid it?

Yes, during the periods for the elderly.  Though I imagine most pools would turn a blind eye to it if they said it was their grandkid.  As I said earlier I think it's more aimed at the elderly people who don't have any family, or at least any family in the area who want to go out with them.  It's a social thing.

Family groups...how would that work?  They walk up to you and find out if you are related and then boot you out if you are not?

It's more that that it's a time for people with kids.  If you've not got kids with you come back later.  Not least because you won't enjoy it unless you're a perv because you won't actually be able to swim because the kids'll be playing mostly.

[Valmy]

I mean this in a nice way, but it sounds like you take it as almost a personal affront that women might want to swim without men around.

Is there nothing you do with just male friends?

I don't like it no.  I think I have made it abundantly clear.  They are, of course, free to set up their own clubs and exclude me but I am not interested in having some sort of public embrace of sexist and untrue stereotypes like men are dangerous and women need to have private whatever so they can feel safe.  That is not a value I am interested in being supported.

And I very very rarely do anything with just male friends.  Sometimes there just happen to be just the guys but even then my friend's daughter is usually around.  But even if I did I would not want government protection from a female breaking up our fun or whatever.

[Eddie Teach]

These public pool rules seem more trouble than they're worth, I think I'll stick to swimming at the gym.

[Valmy]

It's more that that it's a time for people with kids.  If you've not got kids with you come back later.  Not least because you won't enjoy it unless you're a perv because you won't actually be able to swim because the kids'll be playing mostly.

And how is that different than a pool at any other time?  They are usually full of kids.

Yes, during the periods for the elderly.  Though I imagine most pools would turn a blind eye to it if they said it was their grandkid.  As I said earlier I think it's more aimed at the elderly people who don't have any family, or at least any family in the area who want to go out with them.  It's a social thing.

Well I cannot really comment as we do not have anything like that.

[Valmy]

These public pool rules seem more trouble than they're worth, I think I'll stick to swimming at the gym.

They are pretty cool around here.  We have natural springs and the like...boy are they cold though.

[Sheilbh]

I don't like it no.  I think I have made it abundantly clear.  They are, of course, free to set up their own clubs and exclude me but I am not interested in having some sort of public embrace of sexist and untrue stereotypes like men are dangerous and women need to have private whatever so they can feel safe.  That is not a value I am interested in being supported.

I think there is an element of sexist stereotypes that men are unsafe.  I think it's more to do with the view Muslim women have that it's their responsibility to dress and behaving well, in that case.  For other women I think it's more to do with their own body image than anything else.  And I don't think either are such horrid things.

And I very very rarely do anything with just male friends.  Sometimes there just happen to be just the guys but even then my friend's daughter is usually around.  But even if I did I would not want government protection from a female breaking up our fun or whatever.

I can't think of anything I'd want to do with only other men that the government would offer to be honest :p

I don't know, I would prefer single-sex hospital wards but that's it.

[Sheilbh]

And how is that different than a pool at any other time?  They are usually full of kids.

The pool's normally split in half.  One half is for people sho want leisurely swimming and splashing about.  The other half is split into lanes and for real swimming.

And the two shall never mix.  I once crossed the boundary when I was a kid and got fiercely whistled by the lifeguard

[Siege]

People that use pools are retards.
People pee, spit, blow their nose, jerk off, and even shit, in public pools.

[Sheilbh]

  Apparently a holiday resort in the UK has now banned men from wearing Speedos for the sake of 'public decency'.  All images are from the article.  A bit excessive if you ask me, I think you can tell it's summer.  The Times:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/men/article6796871.ece

Tide turns in swimwear fashion as men move away from wearing Speedos
Will Pavia


Daniel Craig looks toned on the set of a Bond film

There is a tide in the trunks of men, and it has turned: that will be the conclusion of swimwear scholars when they examine the summer of 2009.

Some will trace the change to the departure of the arch Speedo wearer Cristiano Ronaldo from Manchester United to Spain. Others will no doubt point to the controversy over the emergence of photographic evidence of the next head of MI6, Sir John Sawers, cavorting in his trunks.

Most, however, will settle on the momentous event of this week: the decision of Alton Towers to ban Speedos on the ground of public decency.

It may be that this week comes to be seen as the period when British sympathy for Lycra briefs, already stretched to breaking point, finally snapped. Rosemary Hawthorne, 69, author of Knickers: An Intimate Appraisal, views the ban as an important development in the slow evolution of male swimwear.

"Men's pants and swimwear have a wonderful history but their evolution has been slow compared to women's," she said. "Just look at my husband's trunks. They're 25 years old."

By those standards, the end of Speedo wearing has the significance of a revolution. Even the most addicted users appear to have lapsed into remission.

Doug Slater, 31, an events manager, from Sydenham, southeast London, describes himself as a "reformed Speedo wearer". At the peak of his addiction he owned a pair of briefs, speckled with luminous colours, that he would climb into at the least provocation.

"The amount of stick I got from girlfriends was unbelievable," he said. "There has never been a kind word about my Speedos, though that was no reason to quit."

Now he has reconsidered and this summer has been mostly wearing a pair of white swimming shorts.

Kate Rew, the founder of the Outdoor Swimming Society, has seen men once fiercely attached to their tiny trunks resort to shorts. "Last weekend I was at Lake Windermere to see a friend swim the two-way race there," she said. "He's a big guy, 6ft 2in, 14st of muscle. He got this tiny pair of Speedos out of the car. I said, 'Colin, really?' He put them back and put on some longer ones."

There are, however, a few men who are standing foursquare against the tide of disapproval in their tiny trunks. Some have taken matters even farther. "I get e-mails every week from men saying how much they enjoy their male G-strings," she said.

David Calder, 28, a lifeguard at Gourock outdoor swimming pool at the mouth of the River Clyde west of Glasgow, echoed lifeguards from Devon to Kent, saying that Speedo-wearing was in decline. "But lately we have had people come in with what's basically a thong," he said. "We have to chase them out."

The debate in Britain is not entirely over, however, and in parts of Europe it still rages. Reports from Tenerife suggest a culture clash on the beaches: Russians wearing pant-trunks, Brits in board shorts.

Jean-Claude Tribolet, a spokesman for the French Embassy, said that Speedos were still de rigueur at many French pools though he refused to disclose whether he owned a pair. "I'm a diplomat," he said, indignantly.

A spokesman for the German Embassy said that he would not be seen dead in a pair. Spokeswomen for Greece and Spain said that the trunks were still acceptable and, at the Ukrainian Embassy, Yuliya Belinska, 35, said that they were considered offensive only "in some rural areas".

In an e-mail, she wrote: "In our resort of Crimea, Speedos are quiet common. Sporty man would in most cases opt for Speedos and Ukrainian girls find them very sexy."