Has the American Right Gone Crazy?

[Faeelin]

An interesting piece about 9/11 v. Birthers from fivethirtyeight:

Over at Real Clear Politics, David Paul Kuhn has a pretty good take on the recent Research 2000 / Daily Kos survey revealing that 58 percent of Repulicans either don't believe or aren't certain that Barack Obama was born in the United States. Kuhn points out that in a Rasmussen Reports poll in 2007, 61 percent of Democrats either believed that George W. Bush had advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks, or weren't certain that he didn't.

I agree with Kuhn that there are lowlifes and imbeceles of every political persuasion, and that they ought to be treated with equal scorn. I also agree that the Birther "movement" has gotten far more media attention than it deserves. That's one reason that I've shied away from talking about it. People like Orly Taitz, the Russian-born dentist/real-estate-agent/attorney who has become the birthers' unofficial spokeswoman, ought to be institutionalized somewhere rather than being given a platform on cable news.

However, I don't buy that the two phenomena are entirely equivalent. For one, there are some quantitative differences. In the Research 2000 poll, only 7 percent of Democrats have doubts about Barack Obama's origins. That compares, in the Rasmussen poll, to 26 percent of Republicans who had doubts about George Bush's role in 9/11, and 43 percent who had doubts about whether the CIA had advanced knowledge of the attacks. Trutherism is pathetically widespread -- somewhat more so than birtherism -- and is also somewhat more "bipartisan" than its counterpart. By the way, I'd expect that you'd find a pretty wide overlap between the two groups -- that controlling for party ID and other factors, truthers are much more likely to be birthers and vice versa.

The other difference is qualitative. I can't recall any sitting Congressmen raising doubts about 9/11 (if I've forgotten one or two instances, I'm sure someone will remind me in the comments). On the other hand, quite a few Republican Congressmen have mimicked the birthers' doubts about Obama's place of origin. So, indeed, let's not give Taitz any more facetime. Instead, let's give Senators Jim Inhofe and Richard Shelby, and Represenatives John Campbell, Marsha Blackburn, Bill Posey, Roy Blunt and Dan Burton the ridicule they deserve for enabling these unpatriotic and malicious conspiracy theories.

[garbon]

What does "interesting" mean in this context?

[derspiess]

I don't think they're traditionally left wing, if you think of a Starbucks-sipping New Yorker as a traditional left-winger.  The union people could well be good right-wingers if not for the protection of their racket that Democrats pledge to them.

Union members are not necessarily leftwing, but the unions definitely are.

[Syt]

What does "interesting" mean in this context?

Been watching Jon Stewart (esp Jamie Oliver) this week?

[derspiess]

What does "interesting" mean in this context?

About as much as the Republicans who "aren't sure" if Obama was born in the US.  "Aren't sure" can easily mean "I never gave it much thought" or "I don't care".

[Eddie Teach]

The other difference is qualitative. I can't recall any sitting Congressmen raising doubts about 9/11 (if I've forgotten one or two instances, I'm sure someone will remind me in the comments).

[Caliga]

  Yeah, her.

Did you guys hear the thing recently about how Cynthia was arrested by the Israelis for trying to smuggle arms into Gaza?

[Malthus]

The other difference is qualitative. I can't recall any sitting Congressmen raising doubts about 9/11 (if I've forgotten one or two instances, I'm sure someone will remind me in the comments).

Heh, that 'do makes her look like she's just escaped the asylum. 

[alfred russel]

So from Faelin's polls (taken at face value from the article, which is probably too generous):

truthers: 61% dems, 26% reps
birthers: 7% dems, 58% reps

Two conclusions I can draw from this that might be "interesting":

1) since anyone in either group is stupid, at least 61% of democrats and 58% of republicans are functionally braindead (I can believe this)
2) when it comes to silly consipiracy theories, at least 7% of democrats and 26% of republicans are so dumb they will fall for them even if it dooms their own side.

I'm ignoring the CIA question, because the question isn't overtly political, the article didn't say what the percentages were for democrats, and there is good evidence that intelligence agencies had information that could have foreseen 9/11 if they had put it all together.

[Sheilbh]

Incidentally it's worth remembering that in the UK when we actually had socialism attack politics was ridiculous.  Churchill said that Labour would establish something like the 'Gestapo' (this was an attack on a man who'd been his Deputy PM for a number of years, a party he'd been in coalition with and whose leaders had sat in his cabinet).  During the nationalisation of healthcare the attacks in the Times letter page got over-heated as well.  A number compared Nye Bevan with Hitler

An opposition always goes nutty when, for whatiever reason, they not only dislike the policy but its supporter in a vociferous way.

[Sheilbh]

truthers: 61% dems, 26% reps
birthers: 7% dems, 58% reps

Two conclusions I can draw from this that might be "interesting":

1) since anyone in either group is stupid, at least 61% of democrats and 58% of republicans are functionally braindead (I can believe this)
2) when it comes to silly consipiracy theories, at least 7% of democrats and 26% of republicans are so dumb they will fall for them even if it dooms their own side.

I think there's some overlap between truthers and birthers.  I know that one of the more prominent birthers is also a prominent truther and it sort of makes sense, because they're both about not having control of your government.  The truthers are more offensive, of course, but I think the impulse is the same: someone else is running things against me and there's next to nothing I can do.

[Savonarola]

Yeah, her.

Did you guys hear the thing recently about how Cynthia was arrested by the Israelis for trying to smuggle arms into Gaza?

She's our Rimbaud. 

I had only heard that it was humanitarian supplies.  If she was gun-running that's much more entertaining.

[Neil]

Cell phone towers fried my nuts. 

Couldn't have been too bad, given that your girlie is now pumping out children like some kinda Catholic.

[alfred russel]

Incidentally it's worth remembering that in the UK when we actually had socialism attack politics was ridiculous.  Churchill said that Labour would establish something like the 'Gestapo' (this was an attack on a man who'd been his Deputy PM for a number of years, a party he'd been in coalition with and whose leaders had sat in his cabinet).  During the nationalisation of healthcare the attacks in the Times letter page got over-heated as well.  A number compared Nye Bevan with Hitler

An opposition always goes nutty when, for whatiever reason, they not only dislike the policy but its supporter in a vociferous way.

Modern american politics has advanced to a point that we don't compare people to Nazis. Right Hans?

[Savonarola]

Modern american politics has advanced to a point that we don't compare people to Nazis. Right Hans?

I hope so; Obamahitler just doesn't have the same ring to it.