A Game of Thrones on HBO - I guess this is really going to happen.

[Ed Anger]

Timmay is so defensive over his childlike fantasy stories. 

[Gups]

Never read any Jordan. I've thought about doing so in the past but having learnt that he calls a character "The Dark One" is enough to put me off.

Re Martin, the books are great (except the last one which was mediocre) but I really don't want to have to reread them every few years so I can enjoy the latest.

[jimmy olsen]

See, it is bullshit - problems created so you can spend a book fixing them,

How does that not describe every fantasy book ever?

which has NOTHING to do with the actual story, and not at all convincing that it is anything more.

And what exactly is the story about? It's about the never ending war with the Dark One. The drought was referenced in the opening prophecy in book 5, it's not like it came out of nowhere.

Plus, the story was fucking boring as hell - you knew they would find the stupid bowl, you knew they would "fix the weather", and nothing substantial would actually change, nothing interesting would happen in the process, and you knew it would take 850 pages to do it all, with plenty of hair pulling and Mat brooding and whatshisface being stubborn.

I disagree, but that's just a matter of taste. I especially found Mat's situation hilarious. But I have no problem with that Ed, people like what they like or don't like what they don't. It's when they make a specific complaint that just doesn't make sense in the context of the books that I get pissed.
If someone shit all over The Black Company or whatever you're favorite book or series is I'm sure you'd be annoyed.

[jimmy olsen]

Never read any Jordan. I've thought about doing so in the past but having learnt that he calls a character "The Dark One" is enough to put me off.

Re Martin, the books are great (except the last one which was mediocre) but I really don't want to have to reread them every few years so I can enjoy the latest.

The "character" is Dark Eldricht God whom no one dares say the real name of.

[Ed Anger]

I disagree, but that's just a matter of taste. I especially found Mat's situation hilarious. But I have no problem with that Ed, people like what they like or don't like what they don't. It's when they make a specific complaint that just doesn't make sense in the context of the books that I get pissed.
If someone shit all over The Black Company or whatever you're favorite book or series is I'm sure you'd be annoyed.

No, I wouldn't. 

But, I got the reaction I wanted. I am: satisfied. 

[ulmont]

See, it is bullshit - problems created so you can spend a book fixing them,

How does that not describe every fantasy book ever?

which has NOTHING to do with the actual story, and not at all convincing that it is anything more.

And what exactly is the story about? It's about the never ending war with the Dark One. The drought was referenced in the opening prophecy in book 5, it's not like it came out of nowhere.

Yes, but since we already knew there was a never ending war with the Dark One, and a lot of other stuff going on, the bowl subplot looks like total filler.

[Berkut]

See, it is bullshit - problems created so you can spend a book fixing them,

How does that not describe every fantasy book ever?

A novel creates a situation, then leads the reader through the resolution.

The Jordan series creates a situation, then leads the reader through a dozen barely related amnufactured ancilary "problems" that have nothing to do with the actual story, except that they are a good way to write yet another 1100 page book about them.

It isn't a long story told well - it is a long story with several additional long stories tacked on, and the base story would be MUCH more compelling if the tacked on stories were just left off completely.

Lets comapre this to some acknowledged classic, say Twains Huckleberry Finn - which also has an overarching story and lots of "side" stories.

But those side stories contribute to the point of the main story, and the point of the novel as well. They are well integrated, interesting, and follow a theme. They are not just spooge thrown out so the author can pad his page count, and sell yet another book that doesn't actually go anywhere.

which has NOTHING to do with the actual story, and not at all convincing that it is anything more.

And what exactly is the story about? It's about the never ending war with the Dark One.

So the author is boring us to tears because he wants us to feel as desperate for it all to end as the characters? A clever mechanic!

The drought was referenced in the opening prophecy in book 5, it's not like it came out of nowhere.

Doens't matter whether or not it came out of nowhere - you could remove the entire plotline and it would not materially effect the story in any way at all.

Plus, the story was fucking boring as hell - you knew they would find the stupid bowl, you knew they would "fix the weather", and nothing substantial would actually change, nothing interesting would happen in the process, and you knew it would take 850 pages to do it all, with plenty of hair pulling and Mat brooding and whatshisface being stubborn.

I disagree, but that's just a matter of taste. I especially found Mat's situation hilarious.

Nothing is lilarious the 400th time it is painstakingly explained and the reader is led by the jnose through it again and again and again and again.

But perhaps that is just a matter of taste.

But I have no problem with that Ed, people like what they like or don't like what they don't. It's when they make a specific complaint that just doesn't make sense in the context of the books that I get pissed.

My specific example makes perfect sense in the context of complaining about the books being overlong, rambling, incredibly reptetitive, and largely undirected.

If someone shit all over The Black Company or whatever you're favorite book or series is I'm sure you'd be annoyed.

Not really. People shit all over my favorite books all the time. This thread, in fact, is full of it.

I might respond if I think the shitting is unfair, or to explain why it doesn't bother me. But plenty of people make perfectly valid critiques of Martins work, and I mostly just think "Yeah, he does do that..." and let it go. I try not to defend something just because I like it. It can be the case that you like AWOT even while the criticism of it by others is perfectly valid.

[Neil]

Not true, the women, like the men grow over the series. Nynaeve, Elayane and Egwene develop into well rounded characters who's actions are integral to the success of the light. Not that they're perfect people, their flaws are what make them interesting.

When every character has the same flaws (bitchiness, pettiness, inability to deal well with others), it's not quite as interesting.

That's total bullshit, just as much stuff happens in books 5-7 as in books 1-4 put together.

Major events
1-4 The Eye of the World is saved, Aginor & Balthamel killed, The Horn of Valere rescued and the Seanchan thrown back, The Fall of Tear, Ishamael and Bel'al killed, Rand becomes the Car'a'carn of the Aeil, Mat and the Eelfinn, Black Ajah in Tanchico, Perrin saves the Two Rivers, White Tower Coup, Asmodean captured.
5-7
The Shaido war, Cairhein conquered, Lanfear killed, Moraine trapped in the land of the Eelfinn, the Salidar rebellion, Moghedien captured, the Band of the Red Hand, Rahvin killed, the Seanchan return, Mazrim Taim and the founding of the Black Tower, Rand is kidnapped & tortured, Aginor, Balthamel and Ishamael ressurected, Egwene raised to the Amyrlin seat, Samael killed and Illian conquered.

See, the difference is that the first four books are all advancing the plotline.  Rand is going places, doing things, and generally moving towards his confrontation with destiny.  The irrelevant asides, like the girls hunting the Black Ajah or anything involving the Seanchan after Falma, are relatively short and don't get bogged down.  After that, it turns into them going from country to country, knocking them over and beating the Forsaken of the Week.  The asides get longer and more pointless, and Rand, the main character who drives the action, whose adventures took us all over the world, fades into the background and freezes into immobility.  It's like Jordan forgot who the main character was, and so relied more heavily upon his two sub-mains and the vast assortment of secondary characters to fill space.

[Neil]

It fixed the weather. The Dark One had caused an unnatural heat wave/drought. If they hadn't found it everyone in the world would have died. How is that not integral to the plot?

You know what else would fix the weather?  Rand beating the Dark One.  Instead of using circumstances to advance the plot, the author chose to use them to tell a dull sidestory about unlikeable characters.

[Berkut]

It fixed the weather. The Dark One had caused an unnatural heat wave/drought. If they hadn't found it everyone in the world would have died. How is that not integral to the plot?

You know what else would fix the weather?  Rand beating the Dark One.  Instead of using circumstances to advance the plot, the author chose to use them to tell a dull sidestory about unlikeable characters.

Holy.
Fuck.

Now even Neil manages to say what I mean in 1/10th the space, and with much greater clarity.

I am the fucking Robert Jordan of internet posting!

[Gups]

Never read any Jordan. I've thought about doing so in the past but having learnt that he calls a character "The Dark One" is enough to put me off.

Re Martin, the books are great (except the last one which was mediocre) but I really don't want to have to reread them every few years so I can enjoy the latest.

The "character" is Dark Eldricht God whom no one dares say the real name of.

That makes a difference.

[Berkut]

Never read any Jordan. I've thought about doing so in the past but having learnt that he calls a character "The Dark One" is enough to put me off.

Re Martin, the books are great (except the last one which was mediocre) but I really don't want to have to reread them every few years so I can enjoy the latest.

The "character" is Dark Eldricht God whom no one dares say the real name of.

That makes a difference.

I've always loved this silly little idea that saying somethings name is oh so scary.

I actually liked how Harry Potter would get annoyed and say Voldemort just to fuck with people.

[grumbler]

I am the fucking Robert Jordan of internet posting!

At least you know what you are trying to say, though.  Better to be vaguely precise than precisely vague.

[jimmy olsen]

Never read any Jordan. I've thought about doing so in the past but having learnt that he calls a character "The Dark One" is enough to put me off.

Re Martin, the books are great (except the last one which was mediocre) but I really don't want to have to reread them every few years so I can enjoy the latest.

The "character" is Dark Eldricht God whom no one dares say the real name of.

That makes a difference.

I've always loved this silly little idea that saying somethings name is oh so scary.

I actually liked how Harry Potter would get annoyed and say Voldemort just to fuck with people.

If you actually say the Dark One's name though horrible thing really happen to you like everyone in your family falling sick from a fever, or your entire crop being eaten by locusts.

[Berkut]

Never read any Jordan. I've thought about doing so in the past but having learnt that he calls a character "The Dark One" is enough to put me off.

Re Martin, the books are great (except the last one which was mediocre) but I really don't want to have to reread them every few years so I can enjoy the latest.

The "character" is Dark Eldricht God whom no one dares say the real name of.

That makes a difference.

I've always loved this silly little idea that saying somethings name is oh so scary.

I actually liked how Harry Potter would get annoyed and say Voldemort just to fuck with people.

If you actually say the Dark One's name though horrible thing really happen to you like everyone in your family falling sick from a fever, or your entire crop being eaten by locusts.

really? Why doesn't the Dark One do that whether I say his name or not?

If I am worth spending the resources to plague if I say his name, why aren't I worth the trouble if I *don't* say his name?