A Game of Thrones on HBO - I guess this is really going to happen.

[Viking]

I think Jordan honestly knew where he was going,

I've never gotten that impression.

The problem is that about halfway through book 2, Jordan figured out that his series could very well have ended with book 3, and he needed to pad.  So he did.

There's no fucking way it could have ended in 3 books.

Tolkien did, but then again, he stayed on track.

[jimmy olsen]

I think Jordan honestly knew where he was going,

I've never gotten that impression.

The problem is that about halfway through book 2, Jordan figured out that his series could very well have ended with book 3, and he needed to pad.  So he did.

There's no fucking way it could have ended in 3 books.

Tolkien did, but then again, he stayed on track.

Way more stuff happens and needed to happen to get to the point where the books are at now then what happened in LotR.
That argument is simply absurd.

The series has been taken over by a completely different author, one who has shown himself capable of writing compelling and concise trilogies and stand alone novels and even he thinks the story outline Jordan left couldn't be finished in less than 800,000 words.

[Jaron]

All fantasy writers are merely paler shades of Tolkien.

[Viking]

Way more stuff happens and needed to happen to get to the point where the books are at now then what happened in LotR.
That argument is simply absurd.

The series has been taken over by a completely different author, one who has shown himself capable of writing compelling and concise trilogies and stand alone novels and even he thinks the story outline Jordan left couldn't be finished in less than 800,000 words.

Way more stuff happens, yes, but it didn't need to. He could have kept the story on track and then once he was finished write all the threads describing the universe that most of the books ultimately boil down to.

[grumbler]

I just kept getting the impression that he got lost on segue after segue along with him suddenly finding new characters interesting and inserting them into the story. So he kept getting lost from the red thread of the story along with starting to tell new stories again and again.

I think he was afraid of finishing the series.

I am not sure that he was afraid of ending the series, but agree that he got drawn off track by the ideas he kept having about incidental characters, so he left the bits that he "knew how to do" to pursue his muse while she was talking to him.  There were entire spinoff books folded into the main story.

[grumbler]

Way more stuff happens and needed to happen to get to the point where the books are at now then what happened in LotR.
That argument is simply absurd.

There was not a lot of stuff that "needed" to happen by the middle of the second book.  That argument is absurd.

The series has been taken over by a completely different author, one who has shown himself capable of writing compelling and concise trilogies and stand alone novels and even he thinks the story outline Jordan left couldn't be finished in less than 800,000 words.

That is because Jordan was so self-indulgent (and had such a poor editor).  The stories are replete with side plots, characters, and places that simply distract and detract from the story.

My point is that Jordan knew how he was going to end the series from the start (and so did we, for that matter).  He just lacked the self-discipline to get there.

OTOH, I think Martin lacks the self-discipline to commit himself to an ending, so his books in this series  tend to be well-written potboilers.  Plenty of people like them well enough to keep Martin fed and happy, though, so I don't see it as a problem from his point of view.  I'll admit a vague desire to see the series finished myself, so that I can get back to it (though, since I stopped halfway through book 3, I would have to start again).

[Grey Fox]

Martin posted some covers from a French release of his series.

Much, much, MUCH better than any of the covers I have seen in the States.



Castle Black? and the Wall.



Tyrion in Kings Landing.

I couldn't find that precise edition yesterday. Maybe it's still too new.

[jimmy olsen]

Way more stuff happens and needed to happen to get to the point where the books are at now then what happened in LotR.
That argument is simply absurd.

There was not a lot of stuff that "needed" to happen by the middle of the second book.  That argument is absurd.

Book 2?

Where the books are at now is book 12. I meant that far more stuff as transpired in the WoT then could possibly be fit into 3 books.

[The Larch]

OTOH, I think Martin lacks the self-discipline to commit himself to an ending, so his books in this series  tend to be well-written potboilers.  Plenty of people like them well enough to keep Martin fed and happy, though, so I don't see it as a problem from his point of view.  I'll admit a vague desire to see the series finished myself, so that I can get back to it (though, since I stopped halfway through book 3, I would have to start again).

On the contrary, I think that Martin knows how he wants to end the series, but doesn't know how to get there exactly. He started drifting in book 4, apparently because he had to scrap a flash-forward he intended to do at first, and had to redesign the plot for that period.

[Neil]

Where the books are at now is book 12. I meant that far more stuff as transpired in the WoT then could possibly be fit into 3 books.

Yeah, but 90% of that consists of braid-pulling and the sort of gender politics that make you wonder that if this is what he thought of women, how did he avoid climbing a bell-tower with a rifle.  Really, there isn't a single female character in the whole series that is in any way admirable.

Also, you can see the series slow to a crawl before your eyes.  Look how much happens in the first four books.  After that, events slow to a crawl.

[Darth Wagtaros]

The female characters are mostly useless or just obnoxious.  That is interesting because his wife was heavily involved in reading as he wrote and contributing input on this stuff.

He claimed more than once that they are all based on aspects of his wife. 

[Berkut]

Also, you can see the series slow to a crawl before your eyes.  Look how much happens in the first four books.  After that, events slow to a crawl.

Indeed - I remember the specific point where I quit in frustration - they spent half a book on a story about going to get some fucking bowl or something.

IIRC (and I probably don't) they eventually got the bowl, of course, and I realized the entire episode could have been skipped without it effecting the primary plot in any way at all. Rand probably used it to eat his Wheeties before practicing fighting 64 sowrdsman at once or something.

And it wasn't an interesting segue either.

[jimmy olsen]

Where the books are at now is book 12. I meant that far more stuff as transpired in the WoT then could possibly be fit into 3 books.

Yeah, but 90% of that consists of braid-pulling and the sort of gender politics that make you wonder that if this is what he thought of women, how did he avoid climbing a bell-tower with a rifle.  Really, there isn't a single female character in the whole series that is in any way admirable.

Also, you can see the series slow to a crawl before your eyes.  Look how much happens in the first four books.  After that, events slow to a crawl.

Not true, the women, like the men grow over the series. Nynaeve, Elayane and Egwene develop into well rounded characters who's actions are integral to the success of the light. Not that they're perfect people, their flaws are what make them interesting.

That's total bullshit, just as much stuff happens in books 5-7 as in books 1-4 put together.

Major events
1-4 The Eye of the World is saved, Aginor & Balthamel killed, The Horn of Valere rescued and the Seanchan thrown back, The Fall of Tear, Ishamael and Bel'al killed, Rand becomes the Car'a'carn of the Aeil, Mat and the Eelfinn, Black Ajah in Tanchico, Perrin saves the Two Rivers, White Tower Coup, Asmodean captured.
5-7
The Shaido war, Cairhein conquered, Lanfear killed, Moraine trapped in the land of the Eelfinn, the Salidar rebellion, Moghedien captured, the Band of the Red Hand, Rahvin killed, the Seanchan return, Mazrim Taim and the founding of the Black Tower, Rand is kidnapped & tortured, Aginor, Balthamel and Ishamael ressurected, Egwene raised to the Amyrlin seat, Samael killed and Illian conquered.

[jimmy olsen]

Also, you can see the series slow to a crawl before your eyes.  Look how much happens in the first four books.  After that, events slow to a crawl.

Indeed - I remember the specific point where I quit in frustration - they spent half a book on a story about going to get some fucking bowl or something.

IIRC (and I probably don't) they eventually got the bowl, of course, and I realized the entire episode could have been skipped without it effecting the primary plot in any way at all.

It fixed the weather. The Dark One had caused an unnatural heat wave/drought. If they hadn't found it everyone in the world would have died. How is that not integral to the plot?

[Berkut]

Also, you can see the series slow to a crawl before your eyes.  Look how much happens in the first four books.  After that, events slow to a crawl.

Indeed - I remember the specific point where I quit in frustration - they spent half a book on a story about going to get some fucking bowl or something.

IIRC (and I probably don't) they eventually got the bowl, of course, and I realized the entire episode could have been skipped without it effecting the primary plot in any way at all.

It fixed the weather. The Dark One had caused an unnatural heat wave/drought. If they hadn't found it everyone in the world would have died. How is that not integral to the plot?

Because the Dark One breaking the weather isn't integral either.

Maybe later they could go rescue a spoon that fixed the tides that the Dark One broke. Then they could rescue a flower pot that fixed zippers that didn't zip that the Dark One broke. Then they could rescue a pencil that fixed....

See, it is bullshit - problems created so you can spend a book fixing them, which has NOTHING to do with the actual story, and not at all convincing that it is anything more.

Plus, the story was fucking boring as hell - you knew they would find the stupid bowl, you knew they would "fix the weather", and nothing substantial would actually change, nothing interesting would happen in the process, and you knew it would take 850 pages to do it all, with plenty of hair pulling and Mat brooding and whatshisface being stubborn.