Israel-Hamas War 2023

[HVC]

Sigh, I have no self control.

Question for you Raz, would you justify Hamas using terrorist tactics by saying "well the IDF uses war crimes, so Hamas has no choice but to use terrorist tactics to fight back"?

[crazy canuck]

Like it or not if France and the UK recognise Palestine in the aftermath of the war started by Hamas'terror attack, the logical conclusion by all such groups will be that escalation via terror works

The logical conclusion is that a state should not engage in war crimes.

How is that the logical conclusion?  Hamas blatantly commits war crimes, reaps rewards for it and has little or no negative repercussions.  Take for example Hamas fighting from civilian buildings without using any identifying insignia or uniform.  Not only does this allow them to survive, if they didn't do so they would be quickly destroyed, but the civilian casualties that it causes only results in more people sympathizing with their cause.  This is a clear war crime with major benefits and no downsides.  It is entirely logical for Hamas to do this.

You might want to reconsider your argument that if a terrorist organization commits acts of terror, a state is then justified in committing war crimes.

You are dodging my question.  Hamas, a de facto state, commits war crimes.  Why is it logical for them to refrain from these acts?

That is not a dodge.  If you have not understood what I, Grumbler and others have repeatedly told you, Israel is not justified in committing war crimes, including stopping food from entering Gaza causing the death of children due to starvation.  Your defence of that is reprehensible, to put it mildly.

[Admiral Yi]

Rewards? They are all dead

Three European countries recently recognized the Palestinian state.

[Razgovory]

Like it or not if France and the UK recognise Palestine in the aftermath of the war started by Hamas'terror attack, the logical conclusion by all such groups will be that escalation via terror works

The logical conclusion is that a state should not engage in war crimes.

How is that the logical conclusion?  Hamas blatantly commits war crimes, reaps rewards for it and has little or no negative repercussions.  Take for example Hamas fighting from civilian buildings without using any identifying insignia or uniform.  Not only does this allow them to survive, if they didn't do so they would be quickly destroyed, but the civilian casualties that it causes only results in more people sympathizing with their cause.  This is a clear war crime with major benefits and no downsides.  It is entirely logical for Hamas to do this.

You might want to reconsider your argument that if a terrorist organization commits acts of terror, a state is then justified in committing war crimes.

You are dodging my question.  Hamas, a de facto state, commits war crimes.  Why is it logical for them to refrain from these acts?

That is not a dodge.  If you have not understood what I, Grumbler and others have repeatedly told you, Israel is not justified in committing war crimes, including stopping food from entering Gaza causing the death of children due to starvation.  Your defence of that is reprehensible, to put it mildly.

I wasn't asking about Israel.  I was asking about Hamas.  You said the logical solution is for a state not to commit war crimes.  I want to know why that it is especially in the case of Hamas committing war crimes and only benefiting from it.

[Razgovory]

Sigh, I have no self control.

Question for you Raz, would you justify Hamas using terrorist tactics by saying "well the IDF uses war crimes, so Hamas has no choice but to use terrorist tactics to fight back"?

Sure, why not.  Hamas can commit war crimes that only help to advance it's cause.  It would be stupid of them not too.  That is the perverse incentive system we have now.

In truth this is beginning to remind me of Trump.  He broke the rules, norms, and laws while Democrats were scrupulous about observing said rules, norms and laws.  Trump won and Democrats lost.  Oex kept telling us our laws would not protect us.  I guess the Israelis listened.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Like it or not if France and the UK recognise Palestine in the aftermath of the war started by Hamas'terror attack, the logical conclusion by all such groups will be that escalation via terror works

The logical conclusion is that a state should not engage in war crimes.

if it does it needs to win. That too is reality.
Better accept that the liberal world order is being replaced by something new, which incidentally looks like what was before.
And a human life isn't worth much outside the western mindset. And as the progressives have been telling us for decades: you shouldn't apply, let alone foist, that western mindset on the other peoples of the world.

I am trying to understand your argument in good faith, but I am having trouble making sense of what you are saying.  Are you arguing that Israel must commit war crimes to protect itself from potential threats located in Gaza?

No, what I'm saying is that to the victor go the spoils. And it's not an argument but more of an observation.

A recent example:
Azerbaijan achieved a decisive victory in Nagorno-Karabach. Ethnically cleansed it and immediately set about destroying anything Armenian (note that the Armenians weren't much nicer in the 90s though. another presence of the Russians). No one speaks about this, no one gives a shit (other than the Armenians) and everyone continues to deal with Azerbaijan because they have gas.

In other words: if Israel wins decisively and completes whatever its goals are the general end result will be a lot of shoulders shrugged and a return to business as usual. They have tech the rest of the world is interested in.

A connected observation is that the world is shifting. The words 'international law' as the west interprets it don't carry the weight they did a few decades ago because the new rising powers know that the west is not capable of enforcing it and they have their own point of view on the concept (or may even reject the concept all together).


In the end: No war is clearly better than war, but that doesn't mean we should get involved. Just like everyone else that's not Iran. Middle-Eastern states will behave as Middle-Eastern states. (Western Europe already has far too much exposure to that entire region due to misplaces mass-migration, we should work to decrease that before we become like Lebanon.)

[grumbler]

Azerbaijan achieved a decisive victory in Nagorno-Karabach. Ethnically cleansed it and immediately set about destroying anything Armenian (note that the Armenians weren't much nicer in the 90s though. another presence of the Russians). No one speaks about this, no one gives a shit (other than the Armenians) and everyone continues to deal with Azerbaijan because they have gas.

How could you possibly know what is happening if no one speaks about it or gives a shit?

I suspect that you are engaging in emo hyperbole here. That's never been convincing, except to other emos.

[grumbler]

Sigh, I have no self control.

Question for you Raz, would you justify Hamas using terrorist tactics by saying "well the IDF uses war crimes, so Hamas has no choice but to use terrorist tactics to fight back"?

Sure, why not.  Hamas can commit war crimes that only help to advance it's cause.  It would be stupid of them not too.  That is the perverse incentive system we have now.

In truth this is beginning to remind me of Trump.  He broke the rules, norms, and laws while Democrats were scrupulous about observing said rules, norms and laws.  Trump won and Democrats lost.  Oex kept telling us our laws would not protect us.  I guess the Israelis listened.

Looking at Gaza, I would challenge your assertion that Hamas's war crimes advanced their cause.

And, in any case, the "people commit murder and get away with it so I should be able to murder, too" position is moronic.

Saying that Israel is like Donald Trump is not the endorsement of Israel you seem to think that it is.

[Razgovory]

Sigh, I have no self control.

Question for you Raz, would you justify Hamas using terrorist tactics by saying "well the IDF uses war crimes, so Hamas has no choice but to use terrorist tactics to fight back"?

Sure, why not.  Hamas can commit war crimes that only help to advance it's cause.  It would be stupid of them not too.  That is the perverse incentive system we have now.

In truth this is beginning to remind me of Trump.  He broke the rules, norms, and laws while Democrats were scrupulous about observing said rules, norms and laws.  Trump won and Democrats lost.  Oex kept telling us our laws would not protect us.  I guess the Israelis listened.

Looking at Gaza, I would challenge your assertion that Hamas's war crimes advanced their cause.

And, in any case, the "people commit murder and get away with it so I should be able to murder, too" position is moronic.

Saying that Israel is like Donald Trump is not the endorsement of Israel you seem to think that it is.

The war crime I am in pointing out in particular is not using uniforms and mixing in with the civilian populace.  That has undoubtedly advanced their cause, it has allowed them to survive.  If they wore uniforms and fought away from civilians they would have long been destroyed.  By using human shields and mixing with the civilian populace they have caused civilian casualties that helped their cause in the West immeasurably.  

The case is "People commit crimes against me and police are either indifferent or cheer them on, what other recourse do I have but to retaliate in kind?" seems okay to me.

I was comparing Hamas to Trump, but you knew that.

[DGuller]

Azerbaijan achieved a decisive victory in Nagorno-Karabach. Ethnically cleansed it and immediately set about destroying anything Armenian (note that the Armenians weren't much nicer in the 90s though. another presence of the Russians). No one speaks about this, no one gives a shit (other than the Armenians) and everyone continues to deal with Azerbaijan because they have gas.

How could you possibly know what is happening if no one speaks about it or gives a shit?

I suspect that you are engaging in emo hyperbole here. That's never been convincing, except to other emos.

He did mention that Armenians speak about it, you just didn't bold it for some reason.

[HVC]

We've talked about it too. Unless we're all secretly Armenian? And we found out from the news, so there must have been some talking going on.

[DGuller]

We've talked about it too. Unless we're all secretly Armenian? And we found out from the news, so there must have been some talking going on.

I'm sure we mentioned it, but probably not for 123 pages.

[HVC]

We've talked about it too. Unless we're all secretly Armenian? And we found out from the news, so there must have been some talking going on.

I'm sure we mentioned it, but probably not for 123 pages.

Raz wasn't kind enough to defend the pros of ethnic cleansing in that case. I'm sure if someone took up the cause it'd still be around. We don't make many new topics anymore

[Razgovory]

We've talked about it too. Unless we're all secretly Armenian? And we found out from the news, so there must have been some talking going on.

I'm sure we mentioned it, but probably not for 123 pages.

Raz wasn't kind enough to defend the pros of ethnic cleansing in that case. I'm sure if someone took up the cause it'd still be around. We don't make many new topics anymore

Yeah, nobody is defending Russia either, but that topic is still going.

"Yeah, that thing with the Armenia was bad... Anyway, about Palestine."

[grumbler]

The war crime I am in pointing out in particular is not using uniforms and mixing in with the civilian populace.  That has undoubtedly advanced their cause, it has allowed them to survive.  If they wore uniforms and fought away from civilians they would have long been destroyed.  By using human shields and mixing with the civilian populace they have caused civilian casualties that helped their cause in the West immeasurably. 

Insurgents are not required to wear uniforms.  They must simply, while actually engaged in combat, wear clothing ot gear that distinguishes them from civilians.  And if you look at videos from either side, Hamas fighters are wearing tactical gear and sometimes body armor in combat. There are undoubtedly Hamas war crimes committed almost daily, but those seem to be mostly the indiscriminate rocket fire at civilian targets in Israel.

The case is "People commit crimes against me and police are either indifferent or cheer them on, what other recourse do I have but to retaliate in kind?" seems okay to me.

The case actually is "my neighbors' children commit crimes against me and police are either indifferent or cheer them on, what other recourse do I have but to murder the parents?"  Murdering Palestinian babies provides no benefit to Israel.

I was comparing Hamas to Trump, but you knew that.

Israel is as good a comparison to Trump as Hamas, though no better a comparison.