Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Tamas]

Come on. Hamas were just having truce negotiations with Israel where they had conditions which didn't get met. Yes Palestinians don't want to continue fighting the same way German civilians didn't want to fight on in early 1945.

[Admiral Yi]

The Palestinians have surrendered.
Israel is doing whatever the fuck it wants in their territory.
They're following the rules and going to Israels food distribution centres at random times despite the liklihood of getting shot.
I don't see what more compliance is possible from them.

Comparing WW2 battles to Israels many months long kicking of Gaza is daft.

They are still holding hostages.  AFAIK they are still shooting at the IDF.  They haven't raised their hands and marched into POW camps.  They haven't surrendered.

[Grey Fox]

The Hamas temporary committee, based out of Qatar, still hasn't surrendered.

[Josquius]

The Palestinians have surrendered.
Israel is doing whatever the fuck it wants in their territory.
They're following the rules and going to Israels food distribution centres at random times despite the liklihood of getting shot.
I don't see what more compliance is possible from them.

Comparing WW2 battles to Israels many months long kicking of Gaza is daft.

They are still holding hostages.  AFAIK they are still shooting at the IDF.  They haven't raised their hands and marched into POW camps.  They haven't surrendered.

That's, what, 1% of the population you're talking about.
What about all those who have fuck all to do with hostages, have raised their hands and did whatever the IDF forced them to do and are packed into overcrowded camps?

Come on. Hamas were just having truce negotiations with Israel where they had conditions which didn't get met. Yes Palestinians don't want to continue fighting the same way German civilians didn't want to fight on in early 1945.

In 1945 Continuing to bomb the shit out of Berlin where the Nazis still held out would have been valid no matter how sick of things the civilian population was.

Doing this to Cologne which was behind the lines and firmly under allied military occupation because there were probably some nazi supporters there, would not be acceptable.

[grumbler]

A pertinent question is how much more surrendering Hamas can do. Are there even members left? 

Israel has probably created more members of Hamas than it has killed.

[grumbler]

The word that Raz is completely overlooking in his whataboutism scenarios, but is the very key to defining genocide, is "intent." Genocide requires the intent to commit genocide.

We cannot always (or even mostly) know intent, but we can surmise intent from actions. Israel is very clearly intending to starve Gaza, and that starvation policy by itself is genocidal.  There is no rational connection between starving of infants to death and Israeli "victory" except in the case where intentionally killing Gazan babies is seen as the route to that "victory."

It is possible that the Israeli government is overseeing the death of infants for reasons other than genocide, but those reasons won't be rational.

[Admiral Yi]

That's, what, 1% of the population you're talking about.
What about all those who have fuck all to do with hostages, have raised their hands and did whatever the IDF forced them to do and are packed into overcrowded camps?

The 1% with guns is the relevant group when it comes to talking about surrender.

[Josquius]

That's, what, 1% of the population you're talking about.
What about all those who have fuck all to do with hostages, have raised their hands and did whatever the IDF forced them to do and are packed into overcrowded camps?

The 1% with guns is the relevant group when it comes to talking about surrender.

Which is where Israels moral defence completely collapses.

[Admiral Yi]

Which is where Israels moral defence completely collapses.

It's no different from any other country that's made war.

[crazy canuck]

The word that Raz is completely overlooking in his whataboutism scenarios, but is the very key to defining genocide, is "intent." Genocide requires the intent to commit genocide.

We cannot always (or even mostly) know intent, but we can surmise intent from actions. Israel is very clearly intending to starve Gaza, and that starvation policy by itself is genocidal.  There is no rational connection between starving of infants to death and Israeli "victory" except in the case where intentionally killing Gazan babies is seen as the route to that "victory."

It is possible that the Israeli government is overseeing the death of infants for reasons other than genocide, but those reasons won't be rational.

[Josquius]

Which is where Israels moral defence completely collapses.

It's no different from any other country that's made war.

It absolutely is.
See that WW2 example earlier.
It doesn't matter there's still elements of your enemy fighting on. You look after civilians in occupied territory.

[Bauer]

The word that Raz is completely overlooking in his whataboutism scenarios, but is the very key to defining genocide, is "intent." Genocide requires the intent to commit genocide.

We cannot always (or even mostly) know intent, but we can surmise intent from actions. Israel is very clearly intending to starve Gaza, and that starvation policy by itself is genocidal.  There is no rational connection between starving of infants to death and Israeli "victory" except in the case where intentionally killing Gazan babies is seen as the route to that "victory."

It is possible that the Israeli government is overseeing the death of infants for reasons other than genocide, but those reasons won't be rational.

I think that's a good summary of what genocide is.

But the semantics debate is silly, even if not genocide there are still crimes against humanity occurring.

[viper37]

Which is where Israels moral defence completely collapses.

It's no different from any other country that's made war.

What was the name of that German resistance group again?  Did the allies wipe out every single German and Austrian left standing after they surrended?

[grumbler]

Which is where Israels moral defence completely collapses.

It's no different from any other country that's made war.

Whataboutism is the most feeble defense one can raise.

What other nation has refused to allow lifesaving food and water support to refugees in order to force criminals to surrender?

[Norgy]

The short history of whataboutism is that it was a Soviet propaganda tool.
USA: Your human rights situation is less than stellar
Soviets: But what about all the lynchings in the south of your United States?

There is enough whataboutism for a whataboutism festival these days too.

Understanding that pointing out a wrong in defence of a wrong is a long, mental process. But I wish Raz well and the best of luck.