Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Josquius]

The east European comparison was nothing about it being equally bad and more about how being told one thing in school by a regime can be broken by reality.... If the reality does differ. Which Israel is making every effort to show it doesnt.


I really don't see Hamas surrender as an option.
Not unless you have some kind of mind control powers and can make everyone remotely associated with Gaza follow your commands.

Hamas by it's nature is not a very centralised top down organisation. There's Hamas proper then a huge number of connected milita, some more moderate, some that shock Hamas with their extremism. Asking it to surrender shows a huge disconnect.

If somehow the Hamas leadership throws up their hands and surrenders there will always be someone crazier to go "they can't do that. We are the real Hamas. We will keep fighting".

And I just don't trust the current Israeli leadership to be realistic there and recognise clearly the majority of Hamas has surrendered and the nutters left behind represent no one.

[crazy canuck]

My other thought, Zoups, is why is no one else covering this? The article about its results was published nearly 2 months ago now. And this conflict is being covered in depth by news outlets, so why not this story?

The poll result was covered by others. A quick google search will show you many hits.

Also, it seems like you are treating this like a research publication that was then reported in the newspaper. In that situation, you would expect other newspapers to report on the research publication. But that's not what happened. This was a poll done for and published in the newspaper, and so it's not unusual for other major newspapers, not to copy the same story.

[garbon]

The poll result was covered by others. A quick google search will show you many hits.

Can you tell me how many of those hits are by reputable/mainstream sources and how many wrote their own articles on this? I see the Sri Lanka Guardian covered it and a lot of social media links. Pretty much everything though is basically copy and paste of Zoupa's article or a summary of that 'killer' stat.

Also, it seems like you are treating this like a research publication that was then reported in the newspaper. In that situation, you would expect other newspapers to report on the research publication. But that's not what happened. This was a poll done for and published in the newspaper, and so it's not unusual for other major newspapers, not to copy the same story.

I'm treating it like a person who is skeptical of accepting at face value poll results that only one news outlet seems to want to touch and published its own articles in support and in critique of said poll.

How do we know this was done for the newspaper, did I miss where it said that? Speaking of social media, I see this which suggests it was the university who commissioned the research:

https://x.com/antloewenstein/status/1927911478000242999

Commissioned in March by Pennsylvania State University and conducted by Tamir Sorek for the Israeli polling firm Geocartography Knowledge Group...

Also I'm reacting to one article by that paper saying there's no way you can take issue with the methodology and then the very next day the newspaper posts a piece with specific critiques of the methodology.

Note I wouldn't be thinking anything about this poll (nor have come across it), if Zoupa hadn't posted it as support for his argument. I think it is reasonable to question what is given as evidence.

[crazy canuck]

It is in no way unusual for a poll to be done for a newspaper. It happens all the time. I'm not sure why you have picked this out to be a special case other than you seem to disagree with the conclusion.

[Razgovory]

I don't pretend to understand statistics.  That's what Dguller is for.

[The Minsky Moment]

it's hard to imagine the Palestinians ever forgiving the Israelis.

given what the plo and hamas have been teaching palestinian children for decades on end this was probably never in the cards, same for the lesser but also valuable 'merely co-existing in peace'.

So might as well prove the PLO right, and show Palestinians that Israel is really a bunch of monsters out to exterminate them?

This shit goes on in every so-called intractable conflict, from Northern Ireland to Cyprus to Timor-Leste.  If each side keeps choosing the fulfill the other sides prophecy of the them, the conflict escalates and atrocity piles on atrocity.  But there are other paths.  I don't accept the theory that of all the people of the world Palestinians and Israelis are uniquely and irrevocably incapable of reaching peaceful resolutions.

[grumbler]

I was struck by the debate over whether an "I don't know" answer should be included in a question that starts "do you support...?" The respondent cannot "not know" whether they support something or not. If they haven't made up their mind, then the answer is "no."

[garbon]

It is in no way unusual for a poll to be done for a newspaper. It happens all the time. I'm not sure why you have picked this out to be a special case other than you seem to disagree with the conclusion.

Nor is unusual for you to make insinuations when you are confronted with your own mistakes.

[garbon]

I was struck by the debate over whether an "I don't know" answer should be included in a question that starts "do you support...?" The respondent cannot "not know" whether they support something or not. If they haven't made up their mind, then the answer is "no."

Sure but that's not how all respondents react when forced to make a choice.

[Josquius]

It is absolutely best practice to include a don't know /no opinion answer.

Though yes. Logically you should know if you actively support something or not.

Maybe they need a "I think I do?" answer :p

[Crazy_Ivan80]

it's hard to imagine the Palestinians ever forgiving the Israelis.

given what the plo and hamas have been teaching palestinian children for decades on end this was probably never in the cards, same for the lesser but also valuable 'merely co-existing in peace'.

So might as well prove the PLO right, and show Palestinians that Israel is really a bunch of monsters out to exterminate them?

Nothing what jews do (let alone israel) has any relevance on how the plo or hamas and their subjects view the jews and israel. Prove them wrong: they'll hate the jews, prove them right, they'll hate the jews. It does absolutely not matter. Nothing we do is going to change their view of the jews and israel either, but it might change their views about us (but only in a 'please mr crocodile, eat us last' way)

The closest comparison is how the nazis viewed the jews. Nothing jews did was going to change their opinion.

Long term this ends only one way: with total defeat of one of the parties. Maybe then something can be arranged, not before.
until then: we keep out of it as much as possible and make sure no palestinians enter our countries.

[crazy canuck]

It is in no way unusual for a poll to be done for a newspaper. It happens all the time. I'm not sure why you have picked this out to be a special case other than you seem to disagree with the conclusion.

Nor is unusual for you to make insinuations when you are confronted with your own mistakes.

What mistake did I make?

[garbon]

It is in no way unusual for a poll to be done for a newspaper. It happens all the time. I'm not sure why you have picked this out to be a special case other than you seem to disagree with the conclusion.

Nor is unusual for you to make insinuations when you are confronted with your own mistakes.

What mistake did I make?

Dug out a gif for you, Tamas.

[crazy canuck]

Ok, if you can't or won't engage that is fine.

[Tamas]

It is in no way unusual for a poll to be done for a newspaper. It happens all the time. I'm not sure why you have picked this out to be a special case other than you seem to disagree with the conclusion.

Nor is unusual for you to make insinuations when you are confronted with your own mistakes.

What mistake did I make?

Dug out a gif for you, Tamas.