Israel-Hamas War 2023

[The Minsky Moment]

One of the far-left Hamas supporters in Congress just lost the race in a primary in New York.  I hope it's a sign that antisemitism hasn't yet become totally normalized on the left in the US.

Didn't he get like 41% of the votes though? That's still pretty depressing.

Bowman is a nut.  Not even fellow Democrats liked him.  His erratic behavior and asinine reasoning for his votes is what cost him his seat.  Good riddance.

That accords with what I saw. I live close enough to that district to get a lot of the TV ads.  And there were a ton of ads run; AIPAC put some big money in the race.  However, the main points made were that Bowman opposed Biden on infrastructure and some other key votes and also voted down the budget.  They made it seem like he was crypto-MAGA as opposed to super lefty.

[Admiral Yi]

That's a bit of a con.  NPR said he voted down the infrastructure bill because he and other prog lefties wanted it joined with some free money bill.

[Josquius]

Antisemitism? Hamas supporter?
Googling I see the Israel lobby funded a bunch of attack ads accusing him of this but I'm not seeing any actual evidence of it?
Not a guy I particularly know much about so maybe its out there that he has some dodgy comments on record. But I very much doubt he supports Hamas.

The real story here however isn't one of antisemitism so much as the power and influence of pro-Israel groups.

What would constitute evidence of anti-Semitism?

Sweeping negative statements about Jews.

[garbon]

Antisemitism? Hamas supporter?
Googling I see the Israel lobby funded a bunch of attack ads accusing him of this but I'm not seeing any actual evidence of it?
Not a guy I particularly know much about so maybe its out there that he has some dodgy comments on record. But I very much doubt he supports Hamas.

The real story here however isn't one of antisemitism so much as the power and influence of pro-Israel groups.

What would constitute evidence of anti-Semitism?

Sweeping negative statements about Jews.

That feels conveniently narrow. Evidence of racism wouldn't be so narrowly defined.

[Josquius]

That feels conveniently narrow. Evidence of racism wouldn't be so narrowly defined.

Its the easiest evidence, not the only evidence. Its not really a question that can have an easy answer.
It is important to underline however that criticism of Israel doesn't apply despite there being an active effort from some to try and conflate the two and 'anti semites' basically being a sub-set of Israel-critic with there being few who hate Jews but are pro-Israel.

[Solmyr]

Yeah, it's ridiculous how criticism of Israel is labelled as antisemitism. Same as criticism of NATO does not make you pro-Russian. Criticism of our own is an integral part of our democracy.

[Tamas]

Yeah, it's ridiculous how criticism of Israel is labelled as antisemitism. Same as criticism of NATO does not make you pro-Russian. Criticism of our own is an integral part of our democracy.

The problem is that not all NATO criticism is a pro-Russia statement but all pro-Russian traitors are critical of NATO. Similarly, there are people critical of Israel who are not anti-semites, but all anti-semites are critical of Israel.

So, being critical of Israel specifically doesn't rule out of somebody being an anti-semite.

Plus, being "critical of Israel" is an awfully broad stroke. I am critical of the Israeli government for their West Bank colonisation and Bibi perma-escalating to avoid prison. But I am not critical of what I see their self-defense occupation of territories in 1967, nor am I critical of their decision to decide on a total war with Hamas to try and neutralise that threat (even if in part I know that's partly motivated by Bibi's desire to remain a free man).

So am I "critical of Israel" or am I a supporter of genocide?

[The Brain]

It's not unusual for Israel critics who claim not to be antisemites to claim to be antizionists, meaning that they oppose the existence of a Jewish state. Is it possible to be against the existence of specifically a Jewish state while OK with other nation states without being antisemitic?

[Josquius]

Plus, being "critical of Israel" is an awfully broad stroke. I am critical of the Israeli government for their West Bank colonisation and Bibi perma-escalating to avoid prison. But I am not critical of what I see their self-defense occupation of territories in 1967, nor am I critical of their decision to decide on a total war with Hamas to try and neutralise that threat (even if in part I know that's partly motivated by Bibi's desire to remain a free man).

So am I "critical of Israel" or am I a supporter of genocide?

Why would you be a supporter of genocide?
As you said, criticism of Israel is broad.

It's not unusual for Israel critics who claim not to be antisemites to claim to be antizionists, meaning that they oppose the existence of a Jewish state.

Define Zionism.
In 2024 when most speak of being against Zionism they mean it in the sense of religiously tinged expansionist ethno-nationalism. More against Israel's right than against all Israelis.

Is it possible to be against the existence of specifically a Jewish state while OK with other nation states without being antisemitic?

I'd wager odds are good that most on the left who are not fond of Israel's actions also aren't particularly big on nationalists elsewhere in the world too.
I don't know where you get the idea they're specifically against Israel because Jews. That has fuck all to do with why most aren't happy about Israel.

[Razgovory]

Define Zionism.
In 2024 when most speak of being against Zionism they mean it in the sense of religiously tinged expansionist ethno-nationalism. More against Israel's right than against all Israelis.

Can you prove this?

[Josquius]

Define Zionism.
In 2024 when most speak of being against Zionism they mean it in the sense of religiously tinged expansionist ethno-nationalism. More against Israel's right than against all Israelis.

Can you prove this?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/12/how-zionist-became-a-slur-on-the-us-left

Pretty clear the left and right are speaking past each other when it comes to zionism.

I'll say this is how I view it from my side too. Fuck Zionism. Its MAGA on acid. Little different to Putinism.
Israel's right to exist? No country has an inherent right to exist. I reject this idea wherever it may emerge. Though Israel obviously does exist and its citizens want it to continue to do so. Its just beyond even considering that I'd disagree. Though obviously they do need to do better with minority rights and particular aspects of their foreign policy.

[OttoVonBismarck]

"Anti-Zionism" doesn't have a real meaning other than just being a way for people to say antisemitic things and then go "oh, I'm not criticizing Jews, I am criticizing Zionism."

The leftists who use the term basically use it as a stand in for other more objectionable terms, and there is little overlap in how Pro-Pal leftists intend the term Zionism to land versus how Jews in Israel use it.

Generally speaking it is useful because when someone insists they are an anti-Zionist, you can safely conclude they are actually just antisemites.

[Josquius]

"Anti-Zionism" doesn't have a real meaning other than just being a way for people to say antisemitic things and then go "oh, I'm not criticizing Jews, I am criticizing Zionism."

The leftists who use the term basically use it as a stand in for other more objectionable terms, and there is little overlap in how Pro-Pal leftists intend the term Zionism to land versus how Jews in Israel use it.

Generally speaking it is useful because when someone insists they are an anti-Zionist, you can safely conclude they are actually just antisemites.

I know its hard, but try not to be so fucking stupid.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Show me any prominent "antizionist" who isn't also antisemitic.

And to be clear, because it should be--anyone who suggests Jews should be ethnically cleansed from Israel are intrinsically antisemitic.

[The Brain]

It's not unusual for Israel critics who claim not to be antisemites to claim to be antizionists, meaning that they oppose the existence of a Jewish state.

Define Zionism.
In 2024 when most speak of being against Zionism they mean it in the sense of religiously tinged expansionist ethno-nationalism. More against Israel's right than against all Israelis.

Back in the real world Zionism is the idea that there should exist a Jewish state. AFAIK it was most famously expressed in Theodor Herzl's Der Judenstaat.

Is it possible to be against the existence of specifically a Jewish state while OK with other nation states without being antisemitic?

I'd wager odds are good that most on the left who are not fond of Israel's actions also aren't particularly big on nationalists elsewhere in the world too.
I don't know where you get the idea they're specifically against Israel because Jews. That has fuck all to do with why most aren't happy about Israel.

If they were against nationalism in general then they wouldn't have to single out Jews. And obviously many support for instance a state for Palestinians, so nationalism in itself doesn't appear to be the issue.