Chile elects constitutional convention

[Sheilbh]

So the destabilization of Allende's government doesn't count? 

It might. I have only really looked closely at the coup itself at this point, just because I was curious how the CIA actually does a coup.

Story of a Death Foretold by Oscar Guardiola-Rivera is well worth a read

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Also the far-left run lots of Chilean cities and regions - as is pretty common in Latin America.

In fact Santiago de Chile just elected a communist mayor, for instance.

that's pretty bad, electing people who follow an ideology that has killed so many and is so anti-democratic...

[The Larch]

Also the far-left run lots of Chilean cities and regions - as is pretty common in Latin America.

In fact Santiago de Chile just elected a communist mayor, for instance.

that's pretty bad, electing people who follow an ideology that has killed so many and is so anti-democratic...

That line doesn't work in Chile, mate.

[Admiral Yi]

That line doesn't work in Chile, mate.

Chileans have access to the same history books as the rest of us.

Communist mayors are safe because the office doesn't give control of the judiciary or the electoral system.

[Josquius]

The problem with the Eastern block wasn't that they were communist. It's that they were authoritarian dictatorships. That's a pretty bad thing no matter your economic stance.

[Valmy]

That line doesn't work in Chile, mate.

Chileans have access to the same history books as the rest of us.

Communist mayors are safe because the office doesn't give control of the judiciary or the electoral system.

Yeah the most fatal problem we have had with Communists isn't that collective ownership means tens of millions are automatically killed but their centrally planned dictatorially controlled economies and bureaucracies make stupid uninformed decisions and are insulated from anybody who knows better telling them their ideas are stupid. So you have disastrously idiotic decisions killing millions from starvation and environmental disaster. So Communism, at least as practiced, tends to kill more people trying to help them than it does seizing power or shooting perceived enemies.

If you have Communists with limited power in a constitutional system, I don't know. Maybe they might not kill millions. The Communists in France and Italy were generally not as genocidal as their power was limited, at least not in practice maybe they really wanted to kill millions.

Granted simply not killing millions isn't a super high hurdle to clear.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The problem with the Eastern block wasn't that they were communist. It's that they were authoritarian dictatorships. That's a pretty bad thing no matter your economic stance.

can't have the first without the second. Something the left needs to learn quickly if they want to maintain some semblance of credibility.

And Larch: that line works everywhere. That Chile had to suffer a fascist dictatorship doesn't take away from the fact that communism is a ideology on the same level as fascism.
That communism's endgoal is -supposedly- some utopia can't be used as an excuse. On the contrary: it's a warning. A warning that adherents of such an ideology are dangerous, extremely dangerous, as they believe they have to moral right to "save" humanity.

[Admiral Yi]

The problem with the Eastern block wasn't that they were communist. It's that they were authoritarian dictatorships. That's a pretty bad thing no matter your economic stance.

Do you think that authoritarian dictatorship is not hard wired into communism?

[Valmy]

The problem with the Eastern block wasn't that they were communist. It's that they were authoritarian dictatorships. That's a pretty bad thing no matter your economic stance.

Do you think that authoritarian dictatorship is not hard wired into communism?

Well if they keep running in elections maybe not

It does kind of seem out of step with what they are supposed to be about but I don't know what they have been up to for the past 30 years or so.

[Sheilbh]

Do you think that authoritarian dictatorship is not hard wired into communism?

I think it's hardwired into Marxist-Leninism (although even then there are exceptions - see Nepal I think on its third elected Maoist and Marxist-Leninist coalition ).

More importantly this is the constitutional convention - they've not won power (though they might). And they've also only won just under a third of the seats along with the moderate left, anti-establishment left parties and a number of independents.

But the red scare going on in here is possibly how things so quickly move to coup in Latin America

Edit: But - for example - despite the cover of Time, I don't think Enrico Berlinguer would have ended up leading an authoritarian dictatorship.

[Admiral Yi]

I don't think Nepal works as a counterexample because the power sharing arrangement was the result of a low level guerrilla war.  The Maoists never had total control.

[Admiral Yi]

Well if they keep running in elections maybe not

I don't think that means much.  Spanish communists participated in elections before the civil war.

[Sheilbh]

I don't think Nepal works as a counterexample because the power sharing arrangement was the result of a low level guerrilla war.  The Maoists never had total control.

Yeah in 2007 but they've had three democratic elections since.

2008 returned a Maoist led government with Marxist Leninists in coalition, 2013 returned a Congress led government with Marxist Leninists in coalition, and in 2017 they returned a Marxist Leninist led government with the Maoists in coalition. The Marxist Leninists are, presumably, the Lib Dems of Nepal

Edit: Looking it up apparently the Marxist Leninists (Communist Party of Nepal (Unified Marxist-Leninist)) and Maoists (Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist Centre)) tried to merge into a unified Communist Party of Nepal in 2018 but it fell apart after the courts ruled the the Communist Party of Nepal was already registered so they had to dissolve again

[The Brain]

The problem with the Eastern block wasn't that they were communist. It's that they were authoritarian dictatorships. That's a pretty bad thing no matter your economic stance.

[Valmy]

Well if they keep running in elections maybe not

I don't think that means much.  Spanish communists participated in elections before the civil war.

They have also participated in elections after Franco died

But I mean back in the 1930s they were explicitly funded and controlled by Stalin. I am just if the Communists are operating constitutionally and under a democratic mandate than I guess they are alright. It does seem kind of out of step with what they are supposed to be doing but hey any political party can be Communist just by saying "We Are Communists." It might not mean they are actually practicing Marxism, political branding is weird and nonsensical especially in different countries.