Euro 2020/2021

[Josquius]

In other "Maybe its best if we don't win...wait no...won't Italian restaurants be fire bombed?" news:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/england-euro-2020-denmark-fan-hit-b944865.html

A
Danish family were left horrified after a mob of England fans stormed their bus on the way home from Wembley after the Euro semi-final.

A 9-year-old boy was forced to flee to the top deck as his father was confronted and punched in the stomach by an England fan, after a group of 40 spotted their shirts through the windows.

Eva Greene, 43, has urged police to give Italian fans protection for the Euro 2020 final on Sunday night after her family were singled out by some "drunk and aggressive" fans miles from the stadium.

She described the "electric" feeling when Denmark went 1-0 up and even though her nation lost said they had a good night chatting to other "lovely" England fans in Wembley Stadium.

But on the final leg of their journey to their Dulwich home she spotted a large group of jubilant England fans jumping all over a truck in front of their bus.

She told The Standard: "We were sitting with a sleeping child when a crowd of people spotted our Danish T-shirts through the windows.

"They started banging on the windows and the doors, screaming and yelling.

"They started filming us, it was uncomfortable and weird because we hadn't engaged with them - we just wanted to go home."

The bus driver allegedly opened the doors which allowed England fans to get on the bus with the American father Lane trying to stop them in the corridor.

"At this point I became aware my son was getting afraid, and he went up the stairs. I went after him," Eva said.

"When my back was turned, one guy leapt up and punched my husband in the stomach. A lovely passenger who tried to help us was slapped in the face."

She angrily confronted the group and told them she just wanted to get her son home but she said the "vast majority" kept screaming and banging at the windows where he was sitting.

The bus eventually pulled off as fans continued to yell abuse and make "jerk-off hand signals" at the family, she said.

She continued: "We're just a family. We just wanted to support our team. I don't understand - why wasn't winning enough?

"My husband, who is actually American, was really angry, he told them they should be ashamed of themselves, that they were disgracing the English team. England's team deserve better fans."

The digital communications officer at a prestigious law firm said her son Henry had grown concerned for repercussions on Italy fans if England lose on Sunday.

"We're hoping to persuade our kid to root for England on Sunday. One night of idiocy won't undo 6 years of lovely friends and neighbours.

"I hope the police will put precautions in place for Sunday, outside of Wembley.

"As Henry said 'Who's warning the Italian kids?'"

A Met spokesman said they were investigating an allegation of an assault on Lordship Lane, East Dulwich on Wednesday July 7 at around 11.50pm.

"A passenger on a bus is alleged to have been punched by a man who was part of a crowd of people blocking the road.

"The victim did not sustain any lasting injuries and did not require hospital treatment.

"The incident was reported to police online in the early hours of Thursday, 8 July."

The force added there was no record of a second assault and the confrontation happened in the doorway of a bus.

Italians are a lot more common and recognisable than Danes in the UK at large too.... Really bodes well for the lone Italian in shitholes like Middlesbrough.

[The Larch]

I'm reading plenty of snark on Twitter by non English fans and journalists about some English journos calling Sterling's performance in the penalty "street-wise" and "savvy" and how it is proof that England have learned from past experiences when this played against them. Has any of you read about this?

[Josquius]

I'm reading plenty of snark on Twitter by non English fans and journalists about some English journos calling Sterling's performance in the penalty "street-wise" and "savvy" and how it is proof that England have learned from past experiences when this played against them. Has any of you read about this?

I've no idea what you're referring to honestly.
Most of the journalism I've seen has the focus on Southgate, how he has fostered a club atmosphere in the national team, even those who aren't playing have a role, etc...
Sterling is said to be performing very well but mostly I just hear about his pace and work rate.

[The Larch]

I'm reading plenty of snark on Twitter by non English fans and journalists about some English journos calling Sterling's performance in the penalty "street-wise" and "savvy" and how it is proof that England have learned from past experiences when this played against them. Has any of you read about this?

I've no idea what you're referring to honestly.
Most of the journalism I've seen has the focus on Southgate, how he has fostered a club atmosphere in the national team, even those who aren't playing have a role, etc...
Sterling is said to be performing very well but mostly I just hear about his pace and work rate.

There have been a few pieces whitewashing Sterling's theatrics in the penalty as a display of being "streetwise" and "football savvy", and how that's ok as long as England win. After ages and ages of the English press labelling any foreign player who dared to even half-dive as a cheater, that's a bit rich.

[Gups]

I'm reading plenty of snark on Twitter by non English fans and journalists about some English journos calling Sterling's performance in the penalty "street-wise" and "savvy" and how it is proof that England have learned from past experiences when this played against them. Has any of you read about this?

I've no idea what you're referring to honestly.
Most of the journalism I've seen has the focus on Southgate, how he has fostered a club atmosphere in the national team, even those who aren't playing have a role, etc...
Sterling is said to be performing very well but mostly I just hear about his pace and work rate.

There have been a few pieces whitewashing Sterling's theatrics in the penalty as a display of being "streetwise" and "football savvy", and how that's ok as long as England win. After ages and ages of the English press labelling any foreign player who dared to even half-dive as a cheater, that's a bit rich.

Aww c'mon. Sterling got touched in the penalty box while running at pace and he went down like absolutely every other professional footballer from every country for the last 20 years has. It's totally accepted as part of the modern game in England in domestic and international football and has been for ages. It's not 1986.

[The Larch]

I'm reading plenty of snark on Twitter by non English fans and journalists about some English journos calling Sterling's performance in the penalty "street-wise" and "savvy" and how it is proof that England have learned from past experiences when this played against them. Has any of you read about this?

I've no idea what you're referring to honestly.
Most of the journalism I've seen has the focus on Southgate, how he has fostered a club atmosphere in the national team, even those who aren't playing have a role, etc...
Sterling is said to be performing very well but mostly I just hear about his pace and work rate.

There have been a few pieces whitewashing Sterling's theatrics in the penalty as a display of being "streetwise" and "football savvy", and how that's ok as long as England win. After ages and ages of the English press labelling any foreign player who dared to even half-dive as a cheater, that's a bit rich.

Aww c'mon. Sterling got touched in the penalty box while running at pace and he went down like absolutely every other professional footballer from every country for the last 20 years has. It's totally accepted as part of the modern game in England in domestic and international football and has been for ages. It's not 1986.

If it had been the other way around I'd bet that plenty of people over there would be screaming bloody murder about it. If this had been from almost any other country nobody would have cared, but the British press has always been really sanctimonious about this kind of things, so seeing them now in a "nothing to see here, move on" kind of attitude is pretty rich.

[Josquius]

The attitude from the media I've seen tends to be fairly in line with mine: It was 50/50 whether it was a penalty or not, but the same was true of the earlier Kane one.
Independently we wouldn't have blamed the referee too much if it wasn't given but for two in one game to go against England would have been atrocious.

We get pissed off about diving. Not going down when there was actual contact. It'd be lovely if this wasn't necessary and I personally love it when a player tries to play on, but all too often when that happens the ref doesn't pull things back to a free kick if the play doesn't go anywhere, especially with penalties. So going down is what you have to do.

Also notable is that Sterling went down fairly naturally then turned to the ref to go "Come on! Penalty!". What really pisses people off is when people go down theatrically and roll about as if they've been shot.

[Gups]

I'm reading plenty of snark on Twitter by non English fans and journalists about some English journos calling Sterling's performance in the penalty "street-wise" and "savvy" and how it is proof that England have learned from past experiences when this played against them. Has any of you read about this?

I've no idea what you're referring to honestly.
Most of the journalism I've seen has the focus on Southgate, how he has fostered a club atmosphere in the national team, even those who aren't playing have a role, etc...
Sterling is said to be performing very well but mostly I just hear about his pace and work rate.

There have been a few pieces whitewashing Sterling's theatrics in the penalty as a display of being "streetwise" and "football savvy", and how that's ok as long as England win. After ages and ages of the English press labelling any foreign player who dared to even half-dive as a cheater, that's a bit rich.

Aww c'mon. Sterling got touched in the penalty box while running at pace and he went down like absolutely every other professional footballer from every country for the last 20 years has. It's totally accepted as part of the modern game in England in domestic and international football and has been for ages. It's not 1986.

If it had been the other way around I'd bet that plenty of people over there would be screaming bloody murder about it. If this had been from almost any other country nobody would have cared, but the British press has always been really sanctimonious about this kind of things, so seeing them now in a "nothing to see here, move on" kind of attitude is pretty rich.

No there wouldn't. I mean, social media guarantees there will be a few idiots but nobody who watches football would complain, just as nobody is really complaining about the clear penalty on Kane that wasn't given.

If you think otherwise, give me a source for when England fans have been screaming bloody murder over a penalty given aganst England. Usually when we lose we go after the manager or the players. The last time we really complained about a ref was in 2010 when Lampard wasn't given a goal which went a good metre over the line and even that was muted because Germany were clearly the better side.

And how about the hypocrisy of Europeans complaining about the penalty being given when they would not have cared one way or the other if it had been the other way round and would probably have applauded?

[Sheilbh]

There have been a few pieces whitewashing Sterling's theatrics in the penalty as a display of being "streetwise" and "football savvy", and how that's ok as long as England win. After ages and ages of the English press labelling any foreign player who dared to even half-dive as a cheater, that's a bit rich.

I mean "Tom Daley" was trending after the England win on Twitter and Roy Keane was a pundit so I would be astonished if it wasn't called out on TV too. And I suppose the flipside of this is the Italian press writing about possible corruption between the UK government and UEFA and English gamesmanship. I look forward to Gazetta dello Sport condemning England's negative, defensive approach as well.

But I think there's a wider division within English football of the Graeme Souness (who has been racist about it)/Roy Keane who abhor diving etc and think it's cheating but probably celebrate quite crunching tackles that are borderline unacceptable. I'd note one is Scottish and one is Irish so I think it's a wider attitude than just England. But then you have more modern pundits/fans who don't care about diving so much but have far more of an issue with those defensive fouls.

It isn't only foreign players who are perceived as cheaters (that may just be, understandably, who press and readers in other countries notice being called a cheater). From watching the Premier League I think Sterling, Zaha, Vardy, Kane all have that sort of reputation (at least among neutral fans). I have more sympathy personally with Sterling, Vardy and Zaha because I think they're normally moving quite fast and I can believe that very little contact would knock them off case and it wouldn't take much for them to overplay it and win the foul (but they often get ignored/dismissed by referees because they have a reputation). I have less sympathy with Kane (and Kane I think statistically is the player who dives most in the Premier League).

But I think there is something to it because I think Sterling, Zaha and Vardy would all probably be seen as "streetwise" and "savvy" and "sharp" in a way that Kane wouldn't - but I'm not sure it's on nationality or even race strictly, I'm not sure what's going on. But the first three all have a reputation as "that type of player" while, despite the stats, Kane doesn't.

I think part of it is the decades old British football suspicion of flair and creative players being creative. British football for a very long time didn't produce technical flair players and when we accidentally developed one they were kind of crushed by the system - Glenn Hoddle for example who I think in any other European country would have been a star you build a team around but in England was viewed with suspicion and used very reluctantly and sparingly (but I think this does also, historically, apply to Scotland too). I think there was an association of cheating and gamesmanship with foreign players, but it also came with an association of skill and creativity and flair that didn't exist in the English game.

That has shifted in the last 20 years due to big FA investment in youth coaching with the goal of producing technical, not just athletic players - inspired by the French and Spanish FAs. I also think there's a possible accidental side effect of austerity and before that selling off playing fields to raise money for local authorities - there's a number of English players right now from bits of London especially who grew up playing cage football. So there's a hard, concrete floor, they are in an enclosed space all of which I think would make you better at technical, tight control of the ball and playing your way out of trouble all of which are not traditional English/British footballing virtues - I think Jadon Sancho described it as "in the cages, it was all about nutmegging and badding people up and taking them on". I think that's a shift in the players that we're producing and it's a positive one.

[Gups]

The media has been a lot less wanky and jingoistic in the last few tournies than previously. Even against Germany, the headlines were celebratory and avoided all the WW2 crap.

[Sheilbh]

The media has been a lot less wanky and jingoistic in the last few tournies than previously. Even against Germany, the headlines were celebratory and avoided all the WW2 crap.

Yeah agreed. It's another thing where I just think the perception of England is actually just lagging a little bit behind it.

And similarly I think Lars Sivertson made the point on the Guardian pod that part of the reason the English press and fans were so hostile to their players for doing badly in tournaments wasn't because they thought England deserved to win because they're England, it was that they performed so badly compared to what we saw every week in the Premier League (and I think there was a bit of Premier League parochialism going on). But I think that they looked at these teams with players from Chelsea, United, Liverpool etc and saw players who were incredible for their clubs, who'd won Champions Leagues and then when they put on an England shirt they couldn't pass the ball and didn't look like they knew each other.

I think part of that was probably the club divisions - I think Fergie especially really instilled in his players - and for whatever reason Southgate and the FA have managed to eliminate that when players are with the England team. There was social media post of Rashford and Sterling together in one of the recovery baths and it was all very sweet - but it is just unimaginable to think of a United player when I was growing up sort of sharing something like that with, say, a Liverpool player.

[The Larch]

For the record, this is one of the articles being quoted (Daily Mail, in case there were any doubts  ). There are other two by the Times and the Telegraph that I can't read as they're behind a paywall.

Being streetwise isn't something that comes easy to the English, but under Gareth Southgate the Three Lions have cottoned on... and it's now a team that revels in winning by any means necessary

England have become more streetwise during Gareth Southgate's reign
Harry Kane and Jack Grealish won countless free-kicks against Denmark
Raheem Sterling earned a decisive penalty with a theatrical crash to the ground
Gareth Southgate's side have cottoned on to what others have done for years

Getting over the line, not how, is really all that matters. The pandemonium that ensued at Wembley after the final whistle on Wednesday night is testament to that.

No one will remember Harry Kane and Jack Grealish winning countless free kicks for their team over the course of 120 minutes.

No one will remember Raheem Sterling's rather theatrical crash to the ground to win England's decisive penalty.

No one will remember England stringing together a total of 54 uninterrupted passes for a period of 2 minutes and 41 seconds deep into the extra time, visibly resisting the the urge to score a third, to see out this country's most significant victory in a football match in 55 years.

The emotional scenes of England players and staff, in unison with 52,000 jubilant supporters, singing Neil Diamond's Sweet Caroline amid crazed celebrations — everyone will remember that.

Being streetwise isn't something that necessarily comes easy to the English.

We frown upon footballers with the audacity to gain free kicks, run down the clock or, God forbid, win an unwarranted penalty under minimal contact. It's never been the English way.

But while we were turning our noses up, our rivals were winning.

Diego Maradona circa 1986. Diego Simeone circa 1998. Ricardo Carvalho, with a little help from Cristiano Ronaldo, circa 2006.

Generally, in professional sport, nice guys finish second — or in England's case in the group stages or last 16.

Times are changing, though. Thankfully, under Gareth Southgate our national team has cottoned on.

It isn't about taking the moral high ground. It's about winning — by hook or by crook.

There isn't anything wrong with that, either. Who cares how we win. Southgate certainly sees it the same way.

'Yes, I think the players have learned a lot over the last three or four years, we talked to them about that,' answered Southgate when asked whether his team had learned to become more streetwise.

'We used to talk to the Under 21s about that — it was one of the biggest areas we had to improve upon — and we still can be better at it because the first five minutes of that second half of extra-time, we had the man advantage and didn't really keep the ball well enough.

'There was opportunities to keep the ball far better than we did. But we'd worked it out and the players had worked it out, they did that really well and we have got the technicians to be able to do it.'

So it's Italy, arguably the most streetwise of them all, that stand in the way of England making history.

Get ready for histrionics, clasped hands and haranguing the officials.

Seventy-two hours from kick-off, the mind games have already started: a report in Italian publication Gazzetta Dello Sport suggests the awarding of England's match-winning penalty after Denmark defender Joakim Maehle clipped Sterling in the box was 'generous' and 'confirms the suspicions of a return of favour' to Prime Minister Boris Johnson for his role in preventing the controversial Super League threat to UEFA.

It's a truly absurd assertion, of course. The Italians won't care an iota if it somehow influences the officials on Sunday.

Masters of the dark arts — you'd imagine Giorgio Chiellini and his central defensive sidekick Leonardo Bonucci will have a trick or two up their sleeves, too.

But you finally get the impression that England are in position where they are prepared to give as good as they get in terms of gamesmanship.

'Now we have an immense challenge against a top opponent in Italy,' added Southgate. 'I was hearing they have been to 12 semi-finals, and ten finals, Italy's record is phenomenal. So we've got a huge task ahead of us but one that we'll take on with relish.'

Finally, we have a team that relishes in winning by any means necessary.

The comment section is... interesting. 

[Josquius]

Quite a different take to the less crazy-right media.

[Sheilbh]

I can imagine - and I imagine there's similar in other countries (I refuse to believe that England are the only country where the media have called out Italian gamesmanship ) we're in no position to judge as since the Hazard incident El Chiringuito goes viral on English football twitter I'd say about once a fortnight. So I get it being enjoyable to look at crazy press/football commentary

And I think it's fair to have a little dig about Italy - there was some ridiculous stat about the last minutes of the Belgium game when the ball was only in play for something like 9 of the last 20 minutes largely due to Italy successfully playing for set pieces and maybe feigning injury a little (see also Immobile ). And I think the interpretation in the UK press of Chiellini and Alba's moment before the penalties was that it was Chiellini playing mind games - leading to people joking that we should make Grealish captain for any penalties so Chiellini can try to play mind games on a man with no mind. Out of interest - what was the Spanish take on that moment? Was it just Chiellini being a big lug or did they see it as mind games?

I also think the hypocrisy that annoys me isn't around this - I think it is fair to say, looking at Italian football in general, that they are masters of the dark arts It's the failure of a lot of English commentators and pundits to treat bad tackles in the same way: as cheating. They are against the rules and can be physically dangerous - and this was part of England's 66 success and is part of historic English "footballing identity". But those physical fouls are, I think, still sort of seen as more forgivable and acceptable than "cynical" fouls. Which they're not and very often they can be far worse. And the same people (Keane, Souness etc) who decry cynical fouls will celebrate physical fouls - and there is, especially from Souness, a rhetoric of one being part of our game and one not.

But I think the interesting story of England's relative success over the last two tournaments (and also the relative success of the Women's football team in recent years) is the end of English exceptionalism and the embracing of influence from other countries and traditions and the Europeanisation of English football. Part of that is the Premier League and foreign players but part of it is also the FA going to Clairefontaine to see what France was doing and, in 2012, opening their own "national football centre" for the national teams. Similarly I understand they looked at Spain and the way that apparently the Spanish FA encourages coaching of a certain type of player and did something similar for youth development - they wanted, in particular, to encourage technical players and now the team includes Foden, Mount, Sterling, Sancho, Bellingham etc who are all technically very good and have emerged from that system. Plus on Southgate specifically - he is a feature on British coverage of the Superbowl because he goes every year but he has made a big thing of speaking to coaches in other clubs/nations but also other sports like American Football, basketball, rugby etc to try and get ideas of how to do something different in football. It's all very different from the English football system in the 90s before this process really started.

I think there's something similar going on in the Scottish FA now too - again, historically very conservative, but I think they are looking at successful "small" countries like Croatia and now probably Denmark to see if there's things they can learn to improve the Scottish team. And there definitely is.

And I'd add I think it is okay to sort of celebrate cheating as part of your countries football history and for others to celebrate it - I think if it's being used to condemn I don't like it. So I think about this bit from Jonathan Wilson a lot:

The debate was played out in the pages of El Gráfico, and a consensus emerged that Argentinian football stood in opposition to the game of the British, the quasi-colonial power having largely departed by the beginning of the first world war. On the vast grassy playing fields of the British schools, football was about power and running and energy. The Argentinian, by contrast, learned the game in the potreros, the vacant lots of the slums, on small, hard, crowded pitches where there was no teacher to step in if it got a bit too rough; their game was about being streetwise, tight, technical ability – and cunning.

If a statue was to be erected to the soul of the Argentinian game, El Gráfico's editor Borocotó wrote in 1928, it would depict "a pibe [urchin] with a dirty face, a mane of hair rebelling against the comb; with intelligent, roving, trickster and persuasive eyes and a sparkling gaze that seem to hint at a picaresque laugh that does not quite manage to form on his mouth, full of small teeth that might be worn down through eating yesterday's bread.

"His trousers are a few roughly sewn patches; his vest with Argentinian stripes, with a very low neck and with many holes eaten out by the invisible mice of use ... His knees covered with the scabs of wounds disinfected by fate; barefoot or with shoes whose holes in the toes suggest they have been made through too much shooting. His stance must be characteristic; it must seem as if he is dribbling with a rag ball."

A little under half a century later, Diego Maradona made his international debut. Even at 16, he was not just a great footballer, he was the fulfilment of the prophecy.

I don't think it's bad to say Argentina and Uruguay sort of embrace that streetwise, trickster-ish and cunning (arguably cheating) type of football - I think it's a good thing and I hope they always do it rather than all the world's football being smoothed out into the same game. A bit like I hope Sweden always play with a robust and clever 4-4-2.

[Sheilbh]

Love this - think it manages to cover all bases:
https://stancross.substack.com/p/supporting-the-english