The EU thread

[Sheilbh]

What you've described is a thrilling way of planning a trip in the 1970s

It should be easier for users to be able to see how timetables interact, how they can use rail for cross-border/international travel and to book across multiple national companies online - maybe even via an app Rather than having to research multiple sites (especially in countries with a complicated system like Spain) or book through their national company's international travel office or separate offices in a big city.

As I say I think a lot could be done by just making it open data by default which would allow other companies to build apps or resources off that data.

It's not to say we don't need more cross-border rail because we do, but we also need to make it easier and more customer friendly so people who'd consider using it as an alternative to air travel can do it easily.

[Josquius]

I don't think so. King's Cross-St Pancras is everywhere north-east of London; Euston is everywhere to the north-west (including HS2).

Get your point but....

Looking at google maps I see from South Hamstead Station and following lines east it is possible to find a route into Euston or St Pancras.
The link seems to be less something entirely new and more expanding the lines that are there already (which raises the question of why it was such an epic expensive thing)

I don't think so. King's Cross-St Pancras is everywhere north-east of London; Euston is everywhere to the north-west (including HS2).

Get your point but....

So basically not very different from the East of Paris interconnexion, in theory. Josquius and  his precise knowledge of London, only surpassed by his knowledge of French. 

So basically completely different.
Note the very small scale in this image. This isn't London's suburbs.

[Duque de Bragança]

What you've described is a thrilling way of planning a trip in the 1970s

Quite the bourgeois comment there. 
Besides, I was not even born back then. 

It should be easier for users to be able to see how timetables interact, how they can use rail for cross-border/international travel and to book across multiple national companies online - maybe even via an app Rather than having to research multiple sites (especially in countries with a complicated system like Spain) or book through their national company's international travel office or separate offices in a big city.

Easier, yes. But believe me, me pre-Internet myself would have loved something as easy as bahn.de to check out timetables, instead of relying on WASTEELS or having to go to the SNCF International railway booking service in Paris Saint-Lazare, the one station without any international link. 

As for the '70s, I was doing that in the '90s (in the '80s my parents would do it) and even the early 2000s (Internet was not necessarily adopted quickly by railways).

As I say I think a lot could be done by just making it open data by default which would allow other companies to build apps or resources off that data.

It's not to say we don't need more cross-border rail because we do, but we also need to make it easier and more customer friendly so people who'd consider using it as an alternative to air travel can do it easily.

Not saying it could not be better, it should, but it's secondary. There are many services anyways, omio.com, mainline.com, thetrainline.com, liligo.com etc., to book internationally.
Open data is a big thing for nerds I know but we need more than mottos.

You hit the nail on the head however, with the airline travel reference. Due to the Franco-Spanish rail shenanigans at the Spanish border, it's quicker for me to book a flight to Madrid, even with the tranfer time (no bypass there) and then take a fast train (takes half time compared to the previous one), i.e 220-250 kph (not 300-350 kph high-speed train AVE) from Madrid to Sanabria/Seabra "potato field" station near the Portuguese border.
Only one true railway station till Galicia, it's at the ™Crossroads of the World™. 

So more train services, perhaps idearly back to a '70s-like quantity, if you insist, (pre-Thatcher not just for Josquius) but with contemporary quality (still no Thatcher).

[Duque de Bragança]

I don't think so. King's Cross-St Pancras is everywhere north-east of London; Euston is everywhere to the north-west (including HS2).

Get your point but....

Looking at google maps I see from South Hamstead Station and following lines east it is possible to find a route into Euston or St Pancras.
The link seems to be less something entirely new and more expanding the lines that are there already (which raises the question of why it was such an epic expensive thing)

I don't think so. King's Cross-St Pancras is everywhere north-east of London; Euston is everywhere to the north-west (including HS2).

Get your point but....

So basically not very different from the East of Paris interconnexion, in theory. Josquius and  his precise knowledge of London, only surpassed by his knowledge of French. 

So basically completely different.
Note the very small scale in this image. This isn't London's suburbs.

Guess what, Paris has not annexed any suburb since 1860. Apples and oranges.
In the mean time, enjoy your lack of interconnection between high-speed lines.

[Josquius]

Guess what, Paris has not annexed any suburb since 1860. Apples and oranges.
In the mean time, enjoy your lack of interconnection between high-speed lines.

I don't see the relevance of Paris' administrative boundaries here.

You simply can't compare Camden and Coubert and that has nothing to do with whether they're officially part of a big city or not. This map shows an area completely within central London.

[Duque de Bragança]

Guess what, Paris has not annexed any suburb since 1860. Apples and oranges.
In the mean time, enjoy your lack of interconnection between high-speed lines.

I don't see the relevance of Paris' administrative boundaries here.

You simply can't compare Camden and Coubert and that has nothing to do with whether they're officially part of a big city or not. This map shows an area completely within central London.

It's France, administrative borders matter in a jacobin country.    No baron Haussman available right now to clean up and annex suburbs, sorry

In practical terms, both high-speed lines are not inter-connected, that's what matters. If you are not willing to understand that and the benefits it brings, there is no point in discussing.

In and around Paris, if that's what triggers you, the North, East, South-East and South-West high-speed lines are inter-connected. Capacity may have to be extended for the South-West, it's projected but not paid for.

Without the link HS1-HS2 in central London, both lines are not, and not even a bypass link outside of the M25 (Greater London) as in Central Paris (as defined by the périphérique) has been considered.

[Sheilbh]

Quite the bourgeois comment there. 
Besides, I was not even born back then. 

Easier, yes. But believe me, me pre-Internet myself would have loved something as easy as bahn.de to check out timetables, instead of relying on WASTEELS or having to go to the SNCF International railway booking service in Paris Saint-Lazare, the one station without any international link. 

Sure and I had to book train tickets through Germany and France at the (I believe) now closed London SNCF office. But people don't compare experiences with how it was 20 or 30 years ago - they compare with how easy it is to book alternatives, particularly low cost flights.

Not saying it could not be better, it should, but it's secondary. There are many services anyways, omio.com, mainline.com, thetrainline.com, liligo.com etc., to book internationally.

Sure but to take the Omio example - it's good and better than nothing. But if you want to go from, say, Paris to Florence you already need to know that the stages of your journey (TGV to Turin, TrenItalia to Florence) and book them as two separate journeys. But it will suggest a far longer entirely TrenItalia trip from Paris via Milan and Bologna.

Thetrainline is better at multi-company journeys in one place but that's more because of the way their system works. So they have multi-company journey planning - but they have worse data on European timetables and ticketing than Omio so it's more limited. Omio have the best data in Europe but aren't able to do multi-company trips.

To take the airline analogy again it's like making individuals work out their own connections and buy tickets separately on Omio; or be able to sell entire journey tickets but only covering certain routes.

Open data is a big thing for nerds I know but we need more than mottos.

It's not a motto - I think (as with open banking) a standardised open data set and open API of timetabling and ticketing information would allow developers to build websites or apps that put all this in one place and make it easy for travellers. Which is why it would be challenging politically and a big technical challenge is that different national systems are built differently and I suspect all of the operators horde/siilo their data.

Again, I'm not disputing the need for more routes. But there is a barrier to entry for travellers that makes just booking train travel less attractive and more difficult.

[mongers]

What you've described is a thrilling way of planning a trip in the 1970s

It should be easier for users to be able to see how timetables interact, how they can use rail for cross-border/international travel and to book across multiple national companies online - maybe even via an app Rather than having to research multiple sites (especially in countries with a complicated system like Spain) or book through their national company's international travel office or separate offices in a big city.

As I say I think a lot could be done by just making it open data by default which would allow other companies to build apps or resources off that data.

It's not to say we don't need more cross-border rail because we do, but we also need to make it easier and more customer friendly so people who'd consider using it as an alternative to air travel can do it easily.

This has given me a travel idea.

[garbon]

I don't think so. King's Cross-St Pancras is everywhere north-east of London; Euston is everywhere to the north-west (including HS2).

Get your point but....

Looking at google maps I see from South Hamstead Station and following lines east it is possible to find a route into Euston or St Pancras.
The link seems to be less something entirely new and more expanding the lines that are there already (which raises the question of why it was such an epic expensive thing.

I only see South Hamstead Station as an Overground station?

[Josquius]

I don't think so. King's Cross-St Pancras is everywhere north-east of London; Euston is everywhere to the north-west (including HS2).

Get your point but....

Looking at google maps I see from South Hamstead Station and following lines east it is possible to find a route into Euston or St Pancras.
The link seems to be less something entirely new and more expanding the lines that are there already (which raises the question of why it was such an epic expensive thing.

I only see South Hamstead Station as an Overground station?

Yes?
I don't get your meaning.

Guess what, Paris has not annexed any suburb since 1860. Apples and oranges.
In the mean time, enjoy your lack of interconnection between high-speed lines.

I don't see the relevance of Paris' administrative boundaries here.

You simply can't compare Camden and Coubert and that has nothing to do with whether they're officially part of a big city or not. This map shows an area completely within central London.

It's France, administrative borders matter in a jacobin country.    No baron Haussman available right now to clean up and annex suburbs, sorry

In practical terms, both high-speed lines are not inter-connected, that's what matters. If you are not willing to understand that and the benefits it brings, there is no point in discussing.

In and around Paris, if that's what triggers you, the North, East, South-East and South-West high-speed lines are inter-connected. Capacity may have to be extended for the South-West, it's projected but not paid for.

Without the link HS1-HS2 in central London, both lines are not, and not even a bypass link outside of the M25 (Greater London) as in Central Paris (as defined by the périphérique) has been considered.

I really have no idea what has you triggered here.
Its odd that you continue to insist a short 1km link in the middle of a city to link what is basically the end of one line to another is comparable to a 90km long network in a rural area to connect high speed lines.
What you've got in France looks good. We should have something like this in the UK. Thats exactly what I'm saying. The HS1-HS2 link was not this.

[garbon]

I don't think so. King's Cross-St Pancras is everywhere north-east of London; Euston is everywhere to the north-west (including HS2).

Get your point but....

Looking at google maps I see from South Hamstead Station and following lines east it is possible to find a route into Euston or St Pancras.
The link seems to be less something entirely new and more expanding the lines that are there already (which raises the question of why it was such an epic expensive thing.

I only see South Hamstead Station as an Overground station?

Yes?
I don't get your meaning.

Would the point of a highspeed rail link be to avoid those passengers entering into the standard in city connections and therefore adding to its capacity woes?

[Josquius]

Would the point of a highspeed rail link be to avoid those passengers entering into the standard in city connections and therefore adding to its capacity woes?

Yes. That's what I said- in theory its already possible to take a train from Manchester to Paris, the issue is capacity.
Though I do wonder what capacity is like on that existing Camden Road stretch and how much could be squeezed out of it- I'd be surprised if a limited service wasn't possible considering the short length of track neded, if at least a night train (but then if we're doing that there's the better idea I mentioned of just skipping central London altogether).

[garbon]

Would the point of a highspeed rail link be to avoid those passengers entering into the standard in city connections and therefore adding to its capacity woes?

Yes. That's what I said- in theory its already possible to take a train from Manchester to Paris, the issue is capacity.
Though I do wonder what capacity is like on that existing Camden Road stretch and how much could be squeezed out of it- I'd be surprised if a limited service wasn't possible considering the short length of track neded, if at least a night train (but then if we're doing that there's the better idea I mentioned of just skipping central London altogether).

Yeah but the fact that it is multiple trains does lead as you say to capacity issues and individual level, changes how viable/cost effective the route is.

[Josquius]

Would the point of a highspeed rail link be to avoid those passengers entering into the standard in city connections and therefore adding to its capacity woes?

Yes. That's what I said- in theory its already possible to take a train from Manchester to Paris, the issue is capacity.
Though I do wonder what capacity is like on that existing Camden Road stretch and how much could be squeezed out of it- I'd be surprised if a limited service wasn't possible considering the short length of track neded, if at least a night train (but then if we're doing that there's the better idea I mentioned of just skipping central London altogether).

Yeah but the fact that it is multiple trains does lead as you say to capacity issues and individual level, changes how viable/cost effective the route is.

There were actual investigations into this back in the 90s/00s. Too lazy to google them right now.
It was originally planned to have links between other English cities and the continent when the channel tunnel was under construction, unfortunately its opening coincided with the boom in low cost flights.
Considering the need for passport control facilities in any UK station with services running through the tunnel, it just isn't viable even before we get to considering available paths.  You'd need more than just a few trains a day to make these facilities worth operating and the demand isn't there.

[Duque de Bragança]

Its odd that you continue to exist a short 1km link in the middle of a city to link what is basically the end of one line to another is comparable to a 90km long network in a rural area to connect high speed lines.
What you've got in France looks good. We should have something like this in the UK. Thats exactly what I'm saying. The HS1-HS2 link was not this.

Continue to exist? 

It's not a really a rural area, being close to Paris, peri-urban area at best, with a mix of suburb and somewhat rural possibly (in Île-de-France true rural areas exist but not that much). Coubert has 230/km2 population density. It's not Paris obviously, but this is no hamlet.

Note about of these 90 km, the south and west branches are now shared with the LGV Sud-Est line.

The reason it was done far of the city centre was to save costs and and link several high-speed lines, at full speed.

In the UK, or rather in London  1 kilometre of railway in London *may* hopefully be cheaper than 90 km double-track (plus railway switches etc.), it's Greater London after all. Less of a problem for 1 km double-track (?). A link to Heathrow was considered as well. It would be more than 1 km, but would be worth it.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/aviation-expert-rues-missed-hs2-heathrow-link-opportunity-27-06-2019/

As for a high-speed railway bypass of London, good luck with that (no lines are planned to Wales and the so-called English Riviera), AFAIK.
Sill, that 1 km of track at Camden would be nice for the UK.
 
As for the low cost airlines boom, it's a thing of the past, with prices rising. The passport issue still stands, of course.