The EU thread

[HVC]

And what happens if those units are attacked? Accidentally or purposefully.

[Valmy]

And what happens if those units are attacked? Accidentally or purposefully.

Send in the foreign legion.

[Jacob]

And what happens if those units are attacked? Accidentally or purposefully.

Send in the foreign legion.

The French Foreign Legion is about 8,000 - 9,000 men.

It is a superb fighting force, I'm certain, but it will likely be insufficient to turn back the Russians by itself.

[Josquius]

And what happens if those units are attacked? Accidentally or purposefully.

Then that triggers the trip wire and brings in more substantial numbers. This is established NATO operating practice.

Also needs noting, if we pretend 25k is all the infantry the rest of Europe has and no more is coming... With Ukraine it would be enough to defeat Russia. The main thing Europe can add isn't in infantry, it's in air power and manufacturing capacity.

[Jacob]

Then that triggers the trip wire and brings in more substantial numbers. This is established NATO operating practice.

The problem is that we - or rather the EU - doesn't have "more substantial numbers" readily available to deploy in a coherent way at this moment. And it's not clear how long it would take to 1) assemble these "more substantial numbers" into a coherent fighting force, nor 2) deliver them to where the fighting is taking place.

Also needs noting, if we pretend 25k is all the infantry the rest of Europe has and no more is coming... With Ukraine it would be enough to defeat Russia. The main thing Europe can add isn't in infantry, it's in air power and manufacturing capacity.

Ukraine is, as I understand it, currently experiencing manpower shortages.

[HVC]

So you make Russia the good guys defending themselves from European aggression?


Europe is barely willing to arm Ukraine why in gods name do you think they're will to fight for them?

[Jacob]

So you make Russia the good guys defending themselves from European aggression?

Europe is barely willing to arm Ukraine why in gods name do you think they're will to fight for them?

I think if Europe had tripwire forces and the capability to fight Russia if Russia broke a peace treaty, then Europe would be willing to fight.

But I think it's academic right now, because I don't think Europe has the capability to fight Russia - notwithstanding it's production capacity.

It can get there, IMO, but not with the snap of a finger.

[HVC]

So you make Russia the good guys defending themselves from European aggression?

 

Putting soldiers in an active war zone, to me, seems like a thin pretence to start a war. Seems like a very roman thing to do against the barbarians situation

[Zanza]

Ukraine is, as I understand it, currently experiencing manpower shortages.

Which - like in Europe - is a matter of political will, not running out of fighting age men. They still do only draft in the mid 20s, not younger.

[Zanza]

The two main threats for EU/NATO are Estonia, especially Narva, and the Suwalki gap. We should fortify those and increase troops there significantly. Build supply lines there to sustain those points. Russia also does not have logistics to operate beyond its immediate border area.

And of course, the best investment that Europe could do is to give Ukraine everything it needs. That would have a much bigger effect immediately. But somehow we are not doing that even after three years.

[Jacob]

Putting soldiers in an active war zone, to me, seems like a thin pretence to start a war. Seems like a very roman thing to do against the barbarians situation

I think at this point, European soldiers would only go there to guarantee a peace treaty/ truce.

[HVC]

Putting soldiers in an active war zone, to me, seems like a thin pretence to start a war. Seems like a very roman thing to do against the barbarians situation

I think at this point, European soldiers would only go there to guarantee a peace treaty/ truce.

I was reading Jos's post as doing it  to stop further advancement, but I may be mistaken

[Valmy]

Yeah these troops would only go in to support a peace deal.

But I think it needs to be an army sufficient to actually hold the Russians off in support of the Ukrainians. And I think 64,000 is the right number.

Der Wacht am RheinDnieper

[HVC]

In that Case wouldn't NATO membership be better? Unless you're worried they could go Pro Russia like Hungary.

[Jacob]

In that Case wouldn't NATO membership be better? Unless you're worried they could go Pro Russia like Hungary.

It amounts to the same thing. Europe will have to do the fighting in either case.