Vote in the Dutch general election

[The Larch]

when a Labour politician (a Labour politician!) is the hardline Dutch finance minister during the Eurozone crisis I think it's understandable that you might need a left alternative

Frugality is the one thing that unites us 

Monsters

I read somewhere than one of the reasons why the Dutch are now more vocal in EU forums about frugality is actually because of Brexit, as it was the UK the who did most of their talking points in the past and they were more comfortable supporting from the background.

It will be interesting to see in the future how Brexit changes political attitudes in the EU, and this might be one of the first rearrangements.

[Sheilbh]

I read somewhere than one of the reasons why the Dutch are now more vocal in EU forums about frugality is actually because of Brexit, as it was the UK the who did most of their talking points in the past and they were more comfortable supporting from the background.

Oh definitely. Not just the Dutch I imagine. I think there's a fair few countries like that. They allowed the UK to kick up a fuss opposing any more integration, or pushing for a more liberal approach on regulation (and take the blame for being a "difficult" country), and I think would normally be aligned with Germany as sympathetic but good Europeans who want to find a solution. I think since Brexit Germany will still generally act as the middle power/problem solver, but a number of countries who basically supported the UK position quietly will now be the ones kicking up a fuss and being difficult.

I think probably the Dutch, Scandis, Irish, Baltics and maybe some others.

[Admiral Yi]

Monsters

Catholic profligacy. 

[The Larch]

I read somewhere than one of the reasons why the Dutch are now more vocal in EU forums about frugality is actually because of Brexit, as it was the UK the who did most of their talking points in the past and they were more comfortable supporting from the background.

Oh definitely. Not just the Dutch I imagine. I think there's a fair few countries like that. They allowed the UK to kick up a fuss opposing any more integration, or pushing for a more liberal approach on regulation (and take the blame for being a "difficult" country), and I think would normally be aligned with Germany as sympathetic but good Europeans who want to find a solution. I think since Brexit Germany will still generally act as the middle power/problem solver, but a number of countries who basically supported the UK position quietly will now be the ones kicking up a fuss and being difficult.

I think probably the Dutch, Scandis, Irish, Baltics and maybe some others.

The emergence of the Frugal Four (Netherlands, Austria, Denmark and Sweden) would be the first sign, IMO.

[Sheilbh]

The emergence of the Frugal Four (Netherlands, Austria, Denmark and Sweden) would be the first sign, IMO.

Yeah - I think you're right and I think the covid recovery fund would've been impossible with the UK as a member state.

But I think that's probably only the beginning and it'll actually not be a fixed bloc so much as different coalitions on different issues. For example I think UK Euroscepticism about EU work on foreign and defence policy (and the view that it's a risk to NATO) will probably be picked up by the Baltics and Poland mainly rather than the Frugal Four.

[The Larch]

The emergence of the Frugal Four (Netherlands, Austria, Denmark and Sweden) would be the first sign, IMO.

Yeah - I think you're right and I think the covid recovery fund would've been impossible with the UK as a member state.

But I think that's probably only the beginning and it'll actually not be a fixed bloc so much as different coalitions on different issues. For example I think UK Euroscepticism about EU work on foreign and defence policy (and the view that it's a risk to NATO) will probably be picked up by the Baltics and Poland mainly rather than the Frugal Four.

Yeah, it will depend on the topic for sure. Visegrad is another contrarian bloc, too, but it predates Brexit. Don't know how they'll be affected, though.

[Admiral Yi]

It will be interesting to see how the communal borrowing aspect of the EU's Covid recovery program play out.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah, it will depend on the topic for sure. Visegrad is another contrarian bloc, too, but it predates Brexit. Don't know how they'll be affected, though.

Yeah and in many ways they weren't really aligned with the UK on lots of issues. They quite like EU money, for example But the UK and Poland/the Baltics see eye-to-eye on foreign policy, I'm not sure the UK and Hungary do at all.

I'm not sure about Visegrad - that pre-dates those countries joining the EU and I don't think it's been terribly effective within the EU, it's more often just a short-hand for Poland and Hungary. But used to be made up of good Europeans like Tusk. I think they only thing they definitely agree on is keeping the EU money flowing - I know they all disagree on foreign policy/Russia and I'm not even sure they all agree on rule of law issues or if that's just Poland and Hungary.

[Maladict]

Ok, so your Socialists would be what the old school commies would be in many other countries, right?

The Socialist were still the largest party in areas of the northeast and southeast up until this election. The northern socialists evolved from hardline communists, there are still a couple of Lenin statues out there. Interestingly, they have now turned from extreme left to extreme right (FvD), whereas the more traditional southern socialists have fragmented between VVD and D66.

Regarding Christian Democrats I was meaning CU and CDA. The calvinists are such an oddity to me that I can't even calibrate them. 

CU is reformed, too. They will ally with SGP sometimes as a joint party.

The Dutch Greens must feel somehow closer to the German ones, right? At least in terms of becoming (or wanting to become) a serious coalition partner rather than a protest/oposition party like the Animals, which I guess are still in their political infancy and maybe only want to bring their issue to the public rather than participate in governing.

Yeah the Dutch and German Greens seem fairly similar. I have to say the Animals have matured a lot from their shrill beginnings, but they have no intention of governing.

[Maladict]

I read somewhere than one of the reasons why the Dutch are now more vocal in EU forums about frugality is actually because of Brexit, as it was the UK the who did most of their talking points in the past and they were more comfortable supporting from the background.

Yes, the UK was a great ally of the VVD in particular, in European matters.

[Sheilbh]

I am genuinely thrilled to discover that this election is provoking loads of hot takes on Lib Dem Twitter about what the VVD and D66's success could teach the Lib Dems

I always think it's crazy when you see Labour Twitter wondering what they can learn from Stacey Abrams but this is other level.

[Zanza]

Yeah, it will depend on the topic for sure. Visegrad is another contrarian bloc, too, but it predates Brexit. Don't know how they'll be affected, though.

Yeah and in many ways they weren't really aligned with the UK on lots of issues. They quite like EU money, for example But the UK and Poland/the Baltics see eye-to-eye on foreign policy, I'm not sure the UK and Hungary do at all.

The UK just stated in their Integrated Review that their foreign policy and security focus is the Indo-Pacific region instead of the Euro-Atlantic region. Pretty sure that sentiment is not shared by the Baltics or Poland.

[Sheilbh]

The UK just stated in their Integrated Review that their foreign policy and security focus is the Indo-Pacific region instead of the Euro-Atlantic region. Pretty sure that sentiment is not shared by the Baltics or Poland.

That's not right. From everything I've read - including by French think tanks and American think tanks - the big takeaway is that it is very much a tilt to the Indo-Pacific. It actually notes that France and Germany have more developed strategies in the Indo-Pacific and both currently have ships in the Indo-Pacific  - and the EU is publishing it's Indo-Pacific strategy next month. So on that side of things the UK is playing catch-up.

But the IDR makes clear our core security interest is the Euro-Atlantic and Russia is the "most acute" threat to the UK. Russian re-armament, especially of nukes and battlefield nukes, for example is the big driver of the UK increasing it's number of nukes to roughly the level of France - and, arguably, to Britain becoming like France a shameless and transparent nuclear power.

Edit: And incidentally the bit takeaway seems to be that the focus of the UK is science and tech - that's the theme tying everything together in the IDR and especially cyber security and space - again, areas the French have recently announced a focus on.

[viper37]

I think you picked the crazier Nazi veep.

lol

I knew he was bad, just not that bad

[Maladict]

And we're off to a massively embarrassing start. 

Coalition scouts quit after Ollongren accidentally reveals explosive notes
The two people charged with kick-starting the coalition negotiations have resigned after one – D66 home affairs minister Kajsa Ollongren – accidentally leaked her private notes to reporters as she left parliament on Thursday. Ollongren and Annemarie Jorritsma, who is leading the talks on behalf of the VVD, were due to meet prime minister Mark Rutte and D66 leader Sigrid Kaag on Thursday morning to brief them on their findings so far. However, the talks were abruptly halted when Ollongren learned she had tested positive for coronavirus and left immediately. Eagle-eyed reporters spotted that her notes were visible under her arm in an ANP photograph.

When the picture was magnified the words 'position Omtzigt... job elsewhere' could be clearly read. This is a reference to the popular Christian Democrat MP Pieter Omtzigt who has been highly critical of the outgoing coalition, particularly its role in the tax office scandal. The document also states that 'left wing parties are not completely stuck together' – possibly referring to suggestions that Labour (PvdA) could be invited to join a new cabinet. Labour leader Lilianne Ploumen has said publicly she does not want Labour to be the only left-wing party in the coalition. The paper also states that majority support in the upper house of parliament, or senate is not a must for anyone, and questions the negotiating style of CDA leader Wopke Hoesktra and his future cabinet role.

In particular the reference to Omtzigt, currently home due to overwork, has aroused political hackles, with MPs from across the political spectrum calling for an explanation. In their resignation statement, Ollongren and Jorritsma said that the notes were meant as input for the next round of talks and did not reflect the discussions which had already been held.

The PM has since stated nobody needs to explain anything, and they won't. Which has not gone over well, at all.