Military coup in Myanmar

[Eddie Teach]

Viper, I'm gonna need you to connect those dots for me.

[celedhring]

Yeah, I don't think you can remove Christianity and get rid of White Supremacism. They would just embrace *insert religion* that to them represents "traditional white values" instead.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

You guys need to get your heads out of your asses. Islam is a toxic, dangerous ideology. Wanting Islam out of our communities is no different than wanting Nazism, QAnon, etc out of our communities. It's long past time we stop pretending ideologies of hate and destruction somehow are only valid targets of opprobrium when they are niche views held by a few deplorable white people. It is quite the case that such ideologies are just as terrible when they're held by a billion mostly brown people.

Take this drivel back to 4chan

but has he said anything untrue when it comes to the ideology?
as opposed to what he said about the people (remember, most Germans between 1930-1945 were also not bad people, same for the Russians between 17 and 91, etc etc)

You can also go back to 4chan.

Freedom of religion does not only apply to religions you approve of.

I'll go where I please.
What you need to accept is that religion is not special and does not deserve any special treatment. It is just an idea. A human construct.
And these constructs don't get a free pass because they pose as a religion.

as for freedom of religion: freedom of speech and freedom of assembly should cover it sufficiently. These allow you to have your ideologically inclined get-togethers, they allow you to spread the word, to print your message in a book... and they make sure you don't get to spread shit around like 'kill all the jewish, kafir, capitalist, gay, brown, white, red, yellow, spectacle-wearing, ... people.
No special rules needed that make religion more important than non-religion.

Even if Islam was a toxic ideology that needs to be opposed, the way you do that is empower opposition ideas and protect people becoming apostates. You don't do it by persecuting them, religions in particular tend to perversely thrive on it. And especially in this case we are talking about some obscure minority in a rather insular country. I don't think them suffering whatever they are suffering in Myanmar is going to help reduce toxic ideas out there in the world. That is kind of ridiculous.

If you thought Christianity was some big toxic ideology in 14th century I don't think Tamerlane's systematic annihilation of the Nestorians did much to slow its spread.

Of course islam is toxic.
And the way to get rid of is indeed through making sure that people can leave without having to fear for their lives, not through genocide (be that by killing like in Burma or via 'chinese reeducation'). Some of the hard-to-confirm news out of Iran seems to be indicating a positive trend in that regards (going apostate, not the fearing for their lives, sadly. Something that was indicated by my old professor of Iranian archeology 20 years ago).

Empowering apostacy in the region themselves: not too much we can do directly but continuing to hammer on that right. But there's more we can do for those in the west that have left the religion or want to leave the religion. And this is to stop pandering to islam, to stop labeling everything as islamophobia or other terms designed to shield the ideology from any and all forms of opposition. Pandering only empowers the most radical.

Just like all the pandering of the GOP to the religious only empowers the reactionaries, ultra-religious and other assorted crazies. To use that obvious example.

As for christianity... If you look at the world as a whole: it's still pretty damn toxic, just like all the other ideologies. The fact that it seems less so in Western Europe is because liberals, socialists (who weren't necessarily democratic) and progressives pushed back against the overwhelming influence christianity had. And that was a fight that wasn't always played nice. A lot of what was said or published then could be labelled as christianophobia, to use the popular phobia theme.
Odd that these same groups are now unwilling to do the same when it comes to islam. Are these people -who are indeed generally immigrants- not worthy of being freed from the yoke?


Anyways, back to Burma and it's coup I guess.
Another bigwig of the deposed government has been arrested last I heard

[Threviel]

Well, yes. Religion needs to not get special treatment.

Still does not make islam itself toxic (any more than most other religions I mean), that's two different issues. And it certainly does not mean that muslims deserve persecution just because they are muslims.

[Admiral Yi]

Still does not make islam itself toxic (any more than most other religions I mean), that's two different issues.

No other religion (Judaism might be an exception, not sure) has a divinely inspired death penalty for apostasy.

[Threviel]

Still does not make islam itself toxic (any more than most other religions I mean), that's two different issues.

No other religion (Judaism might be an exception, not sure) has a divinely inspired death penalty for apostasy.

All religions have silly stuff going on. Stoning for adultery in christianity and judaism for example. It's a series of beliefs created by people having a magical pretend friend telling them stuff, of course it's going to be full och all kinds of weird shit.

[Admiral Yi]

All religions have silly stuff going on. Stoning for adultery in christianity and judaism for example. It's a series of beliefs created by people having a magical pretend friend telling them stuff, of course it's going to be full och all kinds of weird shit.

Jesus protected a woman who was going to be stoned.  Mohammed told people God said they should kill people who leave Islam.

[Syt]

All religions have silly stuff going on. Stoning for adultery in christianity and judaism for example. It's a series of beliefs created by people having a magical pretend friend telling them stuff, of course it's going to be full och all kinds of weird shit.

Jesus protected a woman who was going to be stoned.

Didn't know he was anti-weed.

[Sheilbh]

Jesus protected a woman who was going to be stoned.  Mohammed told people God said they should kill people who leave Islam.

What about the parable where people who reject Christ ("those enemies" who did not want him to be king over them) should be brought in front of him and slaughtered? I mean that was a huge part in the justification for pogroms and expelling Jews, for parts of colonisation in the Americas (Americans had no contact with Jerusalem so hadn't "rejected" Christ - the good "Christian" thing was to convert them, but if they rejected Christ then they're fair game), slavery in Africa (unlike Americans they were viewed as having rejected Christ so fair game) and the Crusades.

And of course the Christian view of apostates specifically wasn't that different it was about separation from the community (if your right eye fails you, gouge it and throw it away for it is better to lose one body part than for your whole body to fall into hell - which is repeated two or three times in different Gospels). Lucifer is the classic apostate because it isn't just a falling away in faith but a continued rotting presence in the community. All of this is very similar to what you see in the Quran about apostates. People are always super slippery about "Mohammed said" when there is a big difference between Quran and hadith - in the Quran it's just separation followed by punishment in hell (which isn't for eternity in Islam) just as it is in the Bible.

I think this is all nonsense. Islam is as any other religion and should be treated the same. And the discourse around Islam and the far too common move from condemnation of violent Islamism to Islam and Muslims in general, especially in the West, has helped sort of embolden regimes like Russia, China, Myanmar in human rights abuses and the sort of erosion of Muslim civil liberties through anti-Muslim nationalism we see in India.

[Duque de Bragança]

I don't get the comparison between Russia, China and Myanmar regarding muslims. Putin is actually pretty cozy with them.

[Threviel]

I think this is all nonsense. Islam is as any other religion and should be treated the same. And the discourse around Islam and the far too common move from condemnation of violent Islamism to Islam and Muslims in general, especially in the West, has helped sort of embolden regimes like Russia, China, Myanmar in human rights abuses and the sort of erosion of Muslim civil liberties through anti-Muslim nationalism we see in India.

Hear, hear!

[Admiral Yi]

What about the parable where people who reject Christ ("those enemies" who did not want him to be king over them) should be brought in front of him and slaughtered?

Dang, this verse is totally new to me.  I withdraw my objection and will amend my thinking.

[Sheilbh]

I don't get the comparison between Russia, China and Myanmar regarding muslims. Putin is actually pretty cozy with them.

They're on very different scales - but I think Russia definitely took advantage of Western indifference (after 9/11) during the Second Chechen War. At the minute the Russian state works with certain Muslim leaders and tolerates "traditional Russian Islam" but that is defined by the Russian state, not Muslims and deviation from that, even on quite a minor level, is perceived as a risk/extremist. And, as you'd expect, the state has quite a lot of police powers etc against "extremists".

[Sheilbh]

What about the parable where people who reject Christ ("those enemies" who did not want him to be king over them) should be brought in front of him and slaughtered?

Dang, this verse is totally new to me.  I withdraw my objection and will amend my thinking.

It's now very much seen as part of the Second Coming and analysed in a very different way. Historically it's the theological justification for a lot of violence against people who were perceived to have the opportunity to become Christian, but reject that - especially Jews.

[Duque de Bragança]

I don't get the comparison between Russia, China and Myanmar regarding muslims. Putin is actually pretty cozy with them.

They're on very different scales - but I think Russia definitely took advantage of Western indifference (after 9/11) during the Second Chechen War. At the minute the Russian state works with certain Muslim leaders and tolerates "traditional Russian Islam" but that is defined by the Russian state, not Muslims and deviation from that, even on quite a minor level, is perceived as a risk/extremist. And, as you'd expect, the state has quite a lot of police powers etc against "extremists".

Islam is second only to Orthodoxy in Russia, and muslim religious bodies have lots of influence, unlike what Le Pen and co. may say.
Street prayer is even legal in Moscow, in some places. Putin has subsidized mosques and islamic schools, saying Orthodoxy and Islam based on fundamental identical humanistic values. It could explain why humanism never took off I guess.
http://www.newsweek.com/putin-pledges-support-islamic-schools-russia-791561

"Traditional Islam is an integral part of the Russian cultural code

Orthodox Christianity and Islam are based on identical humanistic values, Russian President Vladimir Putin said in his address to the participants in the conference titled "Orthodoxy and Islam — Religions of Peace," which is being held in Bishkek on Thursday.

https://tass.com/politics/1091369

Last one, duly noted by Ukrainians emphasizing this remark, not so publicized abroad
https://risu.ua/en/window-on-eurasia-putin-says-orthodoxy-closer-to-islam-than-catholicism-is_n43445

So wrong example IMO, and even during the Chechen Wars they made sure to blame Wahhabism and not Islam.
Nonetheless, Chechnya "enjoys" a de facto Sharia under the "enlightened" Kadyrov. 
Mind you, the islam question is also linked to Central Asian or just muslim immigration in general, which for instance Navalny is not too fond of, if I am to believe a chagrined Lemonde.fr.

Russians I know (yes anecdotal evidence I know), even the Pro-Putin one, are not too fond of this pro-islamic stuff, if fatalistic about it "mosques or war".