From the "Black People Arrest Themselves" files

[Caliga]

Every account I've seen of this so far has been different in terms of chronology and what was said.  Here's another one with conflicting information:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-07-22/my-daddy-the-jailbird/full/
The above is however clearly a case of a biased interviewer.

Anyway, unless a recording of the incident emerges, we will never know for sure what truly happened.  Berkut is right though that the officer is pretty much fucked no matter what.

[DontSayBanana]

I am curious what people think the cops reason was for fucking with Gates after Gates made it clear he was the owner and was polite and reasonable at all times. You think the cop just decided to mess with him for shits and giggles?

The racism charge makes no sense - if the cop is a racist, why would he evidence that by such things as entering his home, and refusing to give his name? Is that some kind of code for calling eminent and important black people the n-word or something?

Of course, Gates is later quoted saying he did mention racism. Seems like his story changes quite a bit.

I agree the "racism issue" seems to be a smokescreen for a less sensational improper response issue. If there's any "racism" here, I'd level it at the neighbor, who should be able to recognize the person living alongside them.

What I'm curious about is why the officer seems to think Gates was fucking with him? If the guy was locked out of his house long enough to still be outside when the cop got there, I would think a certain level of agitation would be reasonable. Wonderful conflict resolution displayed by the cop here.

As to things you do and don't do as a cop, one of the biggies is you don't go into a home uninvited without a warrant. If you weren't called by a resident, you have to knock on the door and get... surprise, Gates' permission to enter. Refusing to provide badge number also seems to be a no-no, but more because of precinct policy than law.

[Berkut]

I think when someone says something like "This is because I am black man in America" to you while you are doing your job, it is fair to say that person is fucking with you and being an asshole.

Maybe the cop could have dealt with that better - maybe Gates didn't let him. I think Gates as a supposedly mature and intellectual scholar has some responsibility for his own actions. As a black activist concerned with issues of race and racism, it is rather pathetic that he immediately turned this into an issue about race, and really seems to have driven the entire racial aspect of this for his own gain.

[Eddie Teach]

Yes, although if it'd said he was living in Wellesley, that'd probably be a smart move on his part.  I saw a non-white person there once, he was taking a trash bag out of a trash can.

No reflective surfaces? Maybe they're all vampires!

[Berkut]

I think Sgt. Crowley was angry that I didn't follow his initial orders—his demand—his order—to step outside my house because I was protected as long as I was in the house because he didn't have a warrant. I think what he really wanted to do was throw me down and put handcuffs on me because he was terrified that I could be dangerous to him and that I was causing violence in my own home—though obviously he didn't know it was my home.

So now the story is that the officer before his identity was determined asked him to step outside the home, and he refused to do so?

Interesting. Is this the racist move from Crowley, asking someone who for all he knows is breaking into a home where there could very well be victims inside to step outside the house while his identity is determined?

[ulmont]

Maybe the cop could have dealt with that better - maybe Gates didn't let him.

Why is it that you always* take the cop's side?

I mean, just this week, there was the Gates thing, a lawsuit over 12-year olds being tazed and threatened with sodomy - http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/07/20/illinois-officers-sued-for-unprovoked-tasering/ - and a cop who was caught on video attacking a woman in a gas station unprovoked (the cop lied about the attack and said the woman attacked him, was confronted by the video, and then returned to duty eight days later) - http://www.policeone.com/investigations/articles/1857461-Store-video-catches-Philly-cop-confronting-woman/ - why give the cop the benefit of the doubt over the professor, again?

*Unless they praise their union.

[Berkut]

I didn't take the cops side in any of those other examples you mentioned, so clearly your assertion is flawed on the face of it.

And I am not taking the cops side in this case so much as I am against the professor who, IMO, is clearly some kind of dickhead racist. So far nobody has provided a single concrete example of something the cop did (other than arresing Gates) that is clearly out of line or racist - and the arrest came about as a result of the conflict, so clearly cannot be the cause of the conflict.

[DontSayBanana]

I think when someone says something like "This is because I am black man in America" to you while you are doing your job, it is fair to say that person is fucking with you and being an asshole.

Maybe the cop could have dealt with that better - maybe Gates didn't let him. I think Gates as a supposedly mature and intellectual scholar has some responsibility for his own actions. As a black activist concerned with issues of race and racism, it is rather pathetic that he immediately turned this into an issue about race, and really seems to have driven the entire racial aspect of this for his own gain.

And that's why I want to get Gates and his "racism" comments out of the question. Gates verbally agitated the police officer. There were no threats, nothing to warrant an escalation of conflict; the officer allowed his buttons to be pushed and reportedly broke policy and possibly law in his handling of the conflict. No insult Gates threw at him would excuse that.

I missed the new quote about how he was inside the house and asked to step outside, and that does change things substantially. The new chronology makes it sound like the officer was trying to assess the situation and Gates interfered with that phase of the response. In that case, I'm with Seedy on "justified arrest" versus "necessary arrest," and also agree with you that Gates expected an amount of deference that is really only given by some officers to some civilians as a courtesy, and that this is more of a status issue than anything else.

[Jaron]

I think it is hard for a white person to understand what it is like to be a person of color in America. Even if the person in question is "just doing their job" on the surface, one cannot help but wonder what the motivation is beneath that. White people don't really have to worry about that because its all on level playing field. But for minorities, the ever present threat of racism, be it overt or covert, always looms over our head.

[ulmont]

I didn't take the cops side in any of those other examples you mentioned, so clearly your assertion is flawed on the face of it.

Did we have threads on the others and I missed it - I picked them as examples of sub-par police behavior in the news recently?

So far nobody has provided a single concrete example of something the cop did (other than arresing Gates) that is clearly out of line or racist

Right.  Because it's been a question of which account to believe to determine whether the cop acted reasonably or not...and you've assumed the cop is right.

[DontSayBanana]

I think it is hard for a white person to understand what it is like to be a person of color in America. Even if the person in question is "just doing their job" on the surface, one cannot help but wonder what the motivation is beneath that. White people don't really have to worry about that because its all on level playing field. But for minorities, the ever present threat of racism, be it overt or covert, always looms over our head.

No doubt about that, but one of the biggest problems with integration is those to whom race takes on the nature of a magical "jinx" and attribute everything negative to race (the "because I'm black" crew in addition to the normal "don't trust those..." raciss idiots). Cases where the law was bent or broken because of race are one thing, but there are also those who feel they're owed preferential treatment to compensate for what happened in previous generations.

Some of these whackos go so far as to segregate themselves and create race issues where there are none, hurting their cause more than helping it.

[Berkut]

I didn't take the cops side in any of those other examples you mentioned, so clearly your assertion is flawed on the face of it.

Did we have threads on the others and I missed it - I picked them as examples of sub-par police behavior in the news recently?

So far nobody has provided a single concrete example of something the cop did (other than arresing Gates) that is clearly out of line or racist

Right.  Because it's been a question of which account to believe to determine whether the cop acted reasonably or not...and you've assumed the cop is right.

Not at all - even if you look at Gates story and take one of them at face value, I still do not see what the police officer did that was racist prior to the arrest.

Asked him who he was and what he was doing? Asked him to step outside? Asked for ID? How is that racist?

[garbon]

one of the biggest problems with integration

I don't think that it is one of the biggest problems with integration.

[swallow]

I think it is hard for a white person to understand what it is like to be a person of color in America. Even if the person in question is "just doing their job" on the surface, one cannot help but wonder what the motivation is beneath that. White people don't really have to worry about that because its all on level playing field. But for minorities, the ever present threat of racism, be it overt or covert, always looms over our head.

... Cases where the law was bent or broken because of race are one thing, but there are also those who feel they're owed preferential treatment to compensate for what happened in previous generations.

Some of these whackos go so far as to segregate themselves and create race issues where there are none, hurting their cause more than helping it.

To be honest, the people who like to use the compensatory 'owed' approach tend, I think to be those who haven't been successful in their own eyes and need an excuse.  Other people will become bigots of various sorts for the same reason.  I don't think this would be the issue here, even assuming the reports are accurate.  Jaron makes a good point too - it's difficult to decide when someone is being unpleasant to you, or just lacking tact when you've been subjected frequently to unpleasantness.  Actually, I don't think that can be used as an excuse for the policeman here either.  Any professional is expected to be able to respond appropriately to a range of different situations - or not be good enough for their job

[Berkut]

How was he not good enough for his job?

Even if he was an asshole, and didn't kiss Gates ass as much as his "eminent" position demanded, that says nothing about his ability to do his job.

The worst case scenario, as far as I can tell, is that the sergeant in question could be a bit more tactful and considerate. But shit, there are a lot of cops out there, and we aren't willing to pay to train them all that much, so what do you expect? They aren't all going to be super polite guys.

His job was to respond to a call, make sure a crime was not being committed, and secure the area. He did that. All the other bullshit that went down was completely secondary to his job.