JK Rowling reveals she is survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault

[Admiral Yi]

"Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment which consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity."

Nope.  I'm asking why.

[viper37]

Also, posters of a certain age will remember watching East German women compete. Seemed to work just fine.

Yeah, I remember.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHBbInxJ4Is

[DGuller]

Let's make this conversation more interesting.  What it is that most people are thinking but not saying when discussing this topic, leading to the inability to hold a coherent conversation as we're witnessing here?  My guess is that people are desperate to avoid any insinuation that being born transexual is a birth defect of some kind.

[Admiral Yi]

Let's make this conversation more interesting.  What it is that most people are thinking but not saying when discussing this topic, leading to the inability to hold a coherent conversation as we're witnessing here?  My guess is that people are desperate to avoid any insinuation that being born transexual is a birth defect of some kind.

You think this what *most* people in this conversation are thinking?

How did you come to this conclusion?

[Maximus]

Let's make this conversation more interesting.  What it is that most people are thinking but not saying when discussing this topic, leading to the inability to hold a coherent conversation as we're witnessing here?  My guess is that people are desperate to avoid any insinuation that being born transexual is a birth defect of some kind.

I think you might be projecting.

[DGuller]

Let's make this conversation more interesting.  What it is that most people are thinking but not saying when discussing this topic, leading to the inability to hold a coherent conversation as we're witnessing here?  My guess is that people are desperate to avoid any insinuation that being born transexual is a birth defect of some kind.

You think this what *most* people in this conversation are thinking?

How did you come to this conclusion?

When overt words don't make any sense, you have to think that there is a bush out there that people are beating around.  This seems like the most obvious bush. 

The pro-JK crowd seems to walk on thin ice trying to bring up the nuance of what differences there may be between people identifying as women and people who never had to think about what they identify as.  The anti-JK crowd seems to mandate as a fact beyond debate that sex is not binary, but everyone absolutely without reservations is either a man or a woman.  Neither side seems to be making arguments out in the open.

[Tamas]

First of all I don't think you can be born transsexual. I mean, first of all its trans gender isn't it? And gender is a social construct.

A better question would have been: am I trying to avoid saying I am still not 100% convinced its a healthy mental state? The answer for that would have been yes.

[Josquius]

What is a mental illness but a diversion from norms that has been branded as undesirable by society?

Practically everybody has some form of diversion. For most people they're harmless and virtually unnoticeable. Others...are harmful to the person suffering from them or, even worse, to other people.

Once upon a time homosexuality was counted as a mental illness. It is a deviation from the norm afterall. And then there's the whole bible thing. But with time we realised...So what?
If people learn to let gay people be then just accepting homosexuality and letting gay people get on with life is no issue whatsoever.

With transsexuals its similar. Its not something its so easy to dip in and out of like homosexuality (that's what she said) so it does require psychological intervention to determine if somebody is truly transsexual or suffering from some form of delusion. But once it has been determined that somebody is actually trans then...let them be. Whatever gender somebody is doesn't affect me.

The anti-JK crowd seems to mandate as a fact beyond debate that sex is not binary, but everyone absolutely without reservations is either a man or a woman

I don't think anybody has said that.
Intersex people and various non-binary people exist too.
Trans-women are women. Non-binary people are...non-binary people.

I don't know what sealioning is.

You tell me what's hard about it.  You don't want people to use the fact that sports are iffy to conclude that "trans women are not legitimate women." 

Why?  My question is why.  You keep answering you really, really want people not to think that trans women are legitimate women as if that's an answer to why.  It's not an answer to why.

Because lets not let bigots exploit valid questions as an inroad to spreading hate?
Trans-people deserve the right to live in peace?
You're getting into the fundamental ethics of why do people have any rights here.

[Admiral Yi]

[The Brain]

Tyr, why do you think that trans women shouldn't be treated as women? Isn't that holding open the door for hate?

[Josquius]

Tyr, why do you think that trans women shouldn't be treated as women? Isn't that holding open the door for hate?

I've already gone over this.
Nobody would argue that Oscar Pistorius isn't a man.
Nonetheless he required special dispensation to compete in regular men's athletics. There was the very real risk that due to his condition and the aids he had to overcome this he may have an unfair advantage.

[The Brain]

Tyr, why do you think that trans women shouldn't be treated as women? Isn't that holding open the door for hate?

I've already gone over this.
Nobody would argue that Oscar Pistorius isn't a man.
Nonetheless he required special dispensation to compete in regular men's athletics. There was the very real risk that due to his condition and the aids he had to overcome this he may have an unfair advantage.

Why do you think the supposed advantages of trans women would be unfair? If trans women are women, how is any advantage of theirs different from the advantage a cis woman with awesome genes has over other cis women?

[The Brain]

Considering all the bridges society has crossed the past 150 years, maybe this time, this issue, is where the equality train should stop. Maybe this issue is where old privileges should prevail. Maybe this is different from all the other times resistance to equality has been washed over by the advance of society. It's certainly possible that this is the case, I don't know. I don't make the rules of society and I don't want to make the rules of society. It's just not at all obvious to me that this should be the time we say "stop!".

[Josquius]

Why do you think the supposed advantages of trans women would be unfair? If trans women are women, how is any advantage of theirs different from the advantage a cis woman with awesome genes has over other cis women?

Women are women.
But a woman in a wheelchair is going to be better on a downhill course than an able-bodied woman.

[The Brain]

Why do you think the supposed advantages of trans women would be unfair? If trans women are women, how is any advantage of theirs different from the advantage a cis woman with awesome genes has over other cis women?

Women are women.
But a woman in a wheelchair is going to be better on a downhill course than an able-bodied woman.

AFAIK trans women wouldn't be using any special gadgets, but rather the same equipment as everyone else.