JK Rowling reveals she is survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault

[The Brain]

Fair point Brain.

But equally if some trans women can just enter the women's competition and end up dominating it due to genetics, that can be pointed out by misogynists as proof to secondary status of females.

As long as there are people who think that humans being different from each other is somehow bad and shameful there will be a problem squaring this circle. Those people exist in many places on the political spectrum, and I don't see them going away in my lifetime.

Yes but when a choice HAS to be made between discriminating against cis women and discriminating against transgender people, should not the choice be to discriminate against the least number of people?

I don't see that you have to discriminate against cis women just because you don't discriminate against trans women.

[Tamas]

Fair point Brain.

But equally if some trans women can just enter the women's competition and end up dominating it due to genetics, that can be pointed out by misogynists as proof to secondary status of females.

As long as there are people who think that humans being different from each other is somehow bad and shameful there will be a problem squaring this circle. Those people exist in many places on the political spectrum, and I don't see them going away in my lifetime.

Yes but when a choice HAS to be made between discriminating against cis women and discriminating against transgender people, should not the choice be to discriminate against the least number of people?

I don't see that you have to discriminate against cis women just because you don't discriminate against trans women.

If that is true it means there is no valid reason to have men's and women's separation in sports.

[The Brain]

Fair point Brain.

But equally if some trans women can just enter the women's competition and end up dominating it due to genetics, that can be pointed out by misogynists as proof to secondary status of females.

As long as there are people who think that humans being different from each other is somehow bad and shameful there will be a problem squaring this circle. Those people exist in many places on the political spectrum, and I don't see them going away in my lifetime.

Yes but when a choice HAS to be made between discriminating against cis women and discriminating against transgender people, should not the choice be to discriminate against the least number of people?

I don't see that you have to discriminate against cis women just because you don't discriminate against trans women.

If that is true it means there is no valid reason to have men's and women's separation in sports.

I don't see that. AFAIK the vast majority of women athletes are not trans women, there's likely to still be significant statistical differences between women and men when it comes to athletes.

That being said men and women competing as equals is a staple of SF and fantasy. Maybe society will get there some day?

[Tamas]

I think you are way too smart not to see this but I will indulge you: self-declaring yourself from man to woman is not going to change your physical abilities stemming from your birth sexuality. If that inherent difference in physical abilities is not a source of unfair advantage for birth males vs birth females then separate sports for women and men should be abolished.

If they do mean an unfair advantage then those advantages do not disappear because someone change their name and clothing, or even if they have their genitals chopped off.

[Josquius]

The trouble there is I very much doubt many female athletes will get far in male competition. I could maybe see the absolute super stars of women's sports making it to the lower reaches of the male professional game, but they won't get far beyond that.

AFAIK trans women wouldn't be using any special gadgets, but rather the same equipment as everyone else.

Sure. But the point is that if somebody isn't eligible to compete in women's sport it doesn't mean they're not a woman.
If Messi decides "You know what, I'm off to fill in the paperwork, call be Linda from now on" then that shouldn't automatically entitle him to compete in women's sports. For less successful male athletes the temptation to do this could be real. It really does seem to be something that can't be defined according to set rules, as we've seen in the history of women's sports and intersex people this is a very messy practice.
Rather it should be the case that above a certain level it is assumed by default that trans people can't compete, however the door should be open for people to appeal showing that they are following the spirit of female competition rather than merely exploiting the letter of the law.
e.g. random guy who is OK at sport decides to transition so he can become rich winning women's tournaments= no. Trans woman who happens to be good at a sport= OK.

[Tamas]

This is a complex topic because we are trying to bend reality to match our ideals without anyone getting on the disadvantaged end of either ideals, reality, or both.

[The Brain]

FWIW my impression is that people who think sports is special don't actually subscribe to the idea that trans women are women. I sense a lot of having cakes and eating them.

[Tamas]

FWIW my impression is that people who think sports is special don't actually subscribe to the idea that trans women are women. I sense a lot of having cakes and eating them.

What do we mean by "trans women are women"? If we mean they should get the legal equality, pronouns and be allowed to dress and act as they please and use whichever bathroom then of course they are women.

If we mean they have the exact same physical attributes as biological females then of course they are not women.

[grumbler]

[
Fair enough but if that's the correct attitude then what exactly is the point of having a men/women division in sport? If effectively a person can join either based on self-declaration then it is utterly pointless to have both. Let's have THE sport, and then let the best win. We might end up with e.g. football where the top 4 leagues have barely any women in them unless they were born with testicles as you said, and non-testicled women might disappear from the top echelon of athletics, but apparently that is a small price to pay to ensure that no women gets discriminated based on the frivolous detail of birth sex.

The bolded bit is assuming that legal gender is a matter of mere self-declaration.  Is that true?  If not, then your argument fails.

[grumbler]

Why do you think the supposed advantages of trans women would be unfair? If trans women are women, how is any advantage of theirs different from the advantage a cis woman with awesome genes has over other cis women?

Women are women.
But a woman in a wheelchair is going to be better on a downhill course than an able-bodied woman.

I know of no sport called "downhill course" so I doubt that this is a legit comparison when talking actual sports.  A woman in a sports car is going to be faster than a woman in a wheel chair.

[The Brain]

FWIW my impression is that people who think sports is special don't actually subscribe to the idea that trans women are women. I sense a lot of having cakes and eating them.

What do we mean by "trans women are women"? If we mean they should get the legal equality, pronouns and be allowed to dress and act as they please and use whichever bathroom then of course they are women.

If we mean they have the exact same physical attributes as biological females then of course they are not women.

The legal equality that doesn't let them compete in women's sports? "Separate but equal"?

Why would having the exact same physical attributes as cis women be important? Try this, just as an experiment: think to yourself "trans women are women". Embrace it. Lean back and trust the thought as you trust your body's buoyancy when floating in water. Suddenly the whole problem disappears. Women won't be disadvantaged by trans women in sports because they're all women. See my position? Now you can get back to normal thoughts.

I don't know if trans women are women. I don't know nearly enough about the matter to have a strong opinion. But if they are, then I don't see how you could deny them competing in women's sports without twisting yourself into a very unflattering knot that smells of bigotry.

[Josquius]

Why do you think the supposed advantages of trans women would be unfair? If trans women are women, how is any advantage of theirs different from the advantage a cis woman with awesome genes has over other cis women?

Women are women.
But a woman in a wheelchair is going to be better on a downhill course than an able-bodied woman.

I know of no sport called "downhill course" so I doubt that this is a legit comparison when talking actual sports.  A woman in a sports car is going to be faster than a woman in a whell chair.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/sep/08/can-disabled-athletes-outcompete-able-bodied-athletes

[Crazy_Ivan80]

FWIW my impression is that people who think sports is special don't actually subscribe to the idea that trans women are women. I sense a lot of having cakes and eating them.

What do we mean by "trans women are women"? If we mean they should get the legal equality, pronouns and be allowed to dress and act as they please and use whichever bathroom then of course they are women.

If we mean they have the exact same physical attributes as biological females then of course they are not women.

The legal equality that doesn't let them compete in women's sports? "Separate but equal"?

Why would having the exact same physical attributes as cis women be important? Try this, just as an experiment: think to yourself "trans women are women". Embrace it. Lean back and trust the thought as you trust your body's buoyancy when floating in water. Suddenly the whole problem disappears. Women won't be disadvantaged by trans women in sports because they're all women. See my position? Now you can get back to normal thoughts.

I don't know if trans women are women. I don't know nearly enough about the matter to have a strong opinion. But if they are, then I don't see how you could deny them competing in women's sports without twisting yourself into a very unflattering knot that smells of bigotry.

sounds like orwellian newthink.

[Valmy]

sounds like orwellian newthink.

What the fuck does this mean? I mean I have read a bit of Orwell but I guess I missed this in Animal Farm.

[Richard Hakluyt]

I thought the Brain's remarks were cogent and helpful; they also simplify the question. It all boils down to "if" trans-women are women or not (and vice versa for transmen of course; apparently more common but neglected in nearly all of the discourse).