JK Rowling reveals she is survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault

[Eddie Teach]

I mean the entire "right/left" dichotomy really falls apart when you start mixing up international politics. Not that it is ever especially useful.

[Valmy]

I mean the entire "right/left" dichotomy really falls apart when you start mixing up international politics. Not that it is ever especially useful.

Wait wait wait you challenged the numbers because you thought they were suspect. Once you got the source of the numbers you then move the goal posts to say the whole issue is not useful? If that was the issue why didn't you lead with that instead of the the numbers thing?

[Eddie Teach]

Oh, I still don't "trust" the numbers. They are dependent upon a number of subjective decisions.

[Sheilbh]

If you're limiting yourself to an American context, calling jihadists right-wingers is very misleading. The issue they care about is foreign policy, on which they are diametrically opposed to US right-wingers.

Ok. So exclude them and you've still got over 70%.

Just think of the last few weeks. Nixonland is also really, really good on the figures in the 60s because it is really striking how much attention the left-wing groups (Panthers, Weathermen etc) get and still have, while there are thousands of killings by extremists on the right.

That aside, the process of deciding which murders are due to "extremism" vs some other cause (frex mental illness) sounds highly political.

This is always an issue. I've said before that I am highly dubious about the way we report someone with a history of serious mental health issues stabbing people and shouting out a political slogan or "Allah akbar". So often it gets reported as terrorism, which I'm not sure is right.

[Josquius]

Oh, I still don't "trust" the numbers. They are dependent upon a number of subjective decisions.

Distrust the numbers to the extent that exactly 73.3% of killings are down to right wing extremists- sure.

Distrust the overall point of them that the far right are vastly more likely to murder than anyone else- there's no way they could have fudged the numbers quite that much.

Maybe it was 73.3%. Maybe it was 90%. Maybe it was 60%. Most likely it was something about 73.3%. Quibbling about the exact end result is sort of missing the point.

[Eddie Teach]

Ok, I went to grumbler's link. Not only are they limiting the figures to America but to domestic sources. So no 9/11.

This still leaves the issue of defining left-wing and right-wing extremism. Did they count the Unabomber as a left-wing extremist? What about that dude who shot up a bunch of cops at beginning of BLM protest era? DC sniper? Probably attributed him to Islamism, though there was clearly racial animosity too.

It just doesn't seem realistic to get results of 70 to 2 without finessing the numbers.

[Valmy]

Well those questions might have answers that might be to your satisfaction or they might not. I don't see how simply having questions automatically proves the data dishonest.

[Sheilbh]

So on sports World Rugby have prepared guidelines on trans competitors:
https://playerwelfare.worldrugby.org/gender

In particular the summary and the FAQs are interesting and they do come to conclusions against transwomen (who hit puberty) competing in women's rugby. The big consideration is rugby is not just whether there's an advantage but the safety issues from contact injuries which are quite common. But they have committed to an annual review of the evidence and to update the guidance every three years.

The way this has been handled in the documents is exactly the sort of sensitively handled approach I didn't think sports governing bodies would be capable of - so fair play to World Rugby. It's up to the individual unions whether they adopt these guidenlines but the approach taken seems right in comparison with, say, the athletics governing body or (God help us) what FIFA would do.

Edit: And a summary on Twitter by one of the sports scientists involved:

Ross Tucker
@Scienceofsport
Oct 9
The World Rugby Transgender guideline is now out, and fully available here: https://playerwelfare.worldrugby.org/gender You'll also find a document called FAQs which tries to answer some common questions. We firmly believe it is the right thing in an emotive issue, for many reasons.
The Guideline is also accompanied by a visualisation that summarises the available physiological evidence that informed the Guideline. Here are those images, but I'd encourage consideration of all the issues - biological, legal, medical, social, ethical. All are in the doc & FAQs
As brief a summary as I can provide:
It is not possible to balance inclusion, safety and fairness. All the quality evidence, even if incomplete, strongly suggests that advantages are retained with welfare & performance implications. Therefore, players must compete in sex category
We genuinely did strive for inclusion (see trans men 'bypass'), but where it is apparent that it would compromise safety and performance, it cannot be achieved. Categories of sex exist for a reason and with the contact injury risk of rugby, this is the correct decision.
That said, we are committed to an annual review of the available evidence, because a few universities are doing quality stuff in this area. And a formal review of the guidelines is guaranteed every 3 years. For now, every piece of evidence points one way, and we went that way
And allow me to say, on a personal note - many of you may have questions & thought,. I pretty much guarantee that we thought about EVERY SINGLE ONE. Hard. We were not frivolous or reckless with evidence. The document & FAQ represent our best effort at summing up our 'struggle'

[The Brain]

What are their normal procedures to ensure that safety isn't a problem because of size differences/whatever? They aren't sufficient?

[Tamas]

What are their normal procedures to ensure that safety isn't a problem because of size differences/whatever? They aren't sufficient?

I recon normally if you are too brittle you don't make it into the team.

[Sheilbh]

What are their normal procedures to ensure that safety isn't a problem because of size differences/whatever? They aren't sufficient?

There aren't any normal safety procedures I don't think.

The issue they flag in the FAQs is that the cumulative effect of increased mass, strength, power and speed is quite significant (160% higher in biological males than in biological females). And the ability to withstand forces is a function of strength in particular in addition to the general biomechanics of head and neck forces when a lighter player is in a tackle, ruck or scrum with a heavier player. So the risk is higher for transwomen playing against ciswomen.

While those risks exist in rugby at all times in a team on biological sex you would basically not have the small light players in a ruck or a scrum (and you need the light fast ones to release anyway). But that's a lower risk than the cumulative impact of a transwoman (who went through puberty) against a ciswoman.

I'm not sure if I agree but as I say I think it's an example of doing this based on evidence, open to review and in a sensitive way.

[Josquius]

I don't have a problem with this. Though maybe we do need some kind of small print about special exemptions may be available if someone appeals: in the expectation nobody will but in theory if someone transitioned early enough and gets really good at rugby they aren't disqualified.

[Tamas]

If we ignore the 0.00000001% of the population who cannot be clearly defined in such a way, all the sport-related issues would go away if they were categorised by birth sex instead of gender.

[Josquius]

If we ignore the 0.00000001% of the population who cannot be clearly defined in such a way, all the sport-related issues would go away if they were categorised by birth sex instead of gender.

A bit mad to have testosterone filled hairy muscular trans guys wrestling girls.
There is no easy answer in this.

[11B4V]

If we ignore the 0.00000001% of the population who cannot be clearly defined in such a way, all the sport-related issues would go away if they were categorised by birth sex instead of gender.

A bit mad to have testosterone filled hairy muscular trans guys wrestling girls.
There is no easy answer in this.

Let alone other sports.