JK Rowling reveals she is survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault

[The Brain]

Which newsletter? Non-rhetorical.

I got the impression you felt "trans women are legitimately women" is an important set of words.

Well, I feel that if trans women are women then why shouldn't they be able to compete in women's sports? It seems weird to me.

[The Brain]

Also, posters of a certain age will remember watching East German women compete. Seemed to work just fine.

[DGuller]

  I'm sensing a proof by contradiction.

[Tamas]

One aspect is that there has been a lot of effort in making women's team sports more popular and thus profitable, women's football in particular. Unlike in the case of toilets, I can absolutely see some B grader male athletes declaring themselves women and dominating their respective sport's women's field.

Although this would be good for the lols I guess, not only it would be unfair for the actual females playing women's sports, but also a couple of high profile cases of this would forever destroy any hope of the larger public taking women's sports and athletes seriously.

I do no think this price worth paying to indulge the tiny minority (professional athletes) of a tiny minority (transgender people).

[The Brain]

One aspect is that there has been a lot of effort in making women's team sports more popular and thus profitable, women's football in particular. Unlike in the case of toilets, I can absolutely see some B grader male athletes declaring themselves women and dominating their respective sport's women's field.

Although this would be good for the lols I guess, not only it would be unfair for the actual females playing women's sports, but also a couple of high profile cases of this would forever destroy any hope of the larger public taking women's sports and athletes seriously.

I do no think this price worth paying to indulge the tiny minority (professional athletes) of a tiny minority (transgender people).

One of the effects of your solution is that everyone else who, for whatever reason, has a problem with trans women being treated as women can point to sports and say "See? They aren't actual women. If sports can discriminate then me or my organization should be able to do so too." And their point wouldn't exactly be unreasonable.

The public's idea of what a woman looks like may change. Just like the public's idea of what a professor or astronaut looks like has changed.

[Josquius]

Well, you didn't, you just restated the premise.  "It's a mistake" does not explain why it's a mistake.

Brain, you subscribe to this newsletter.  Maybe you can pitch in?

What's this called again? Sea lioning?

The rules for competition in sports are unrelated to the rules for gender reassignment.
Plenty of sports have rules governing who can and cannot compete without anyone thinking a guy in a wheelchair is somehow not a man because he is banned from professional basketball.
There are very valid questions to be answered in defining just where the lines are for people to be allowed to compete. There's no easy answers and it's daft to try and use it for general trans bashing.
What's hard about this?

[Tamas]

Fair point Brain.

But equally if some trans women can just enter the women's competition and end up dominating it due to genetics, that can be pointed out by misogynists as proof to secondary status of females.

[The Brain]

Fair point Brain.

But equally if some trans women can just enter the women's competition and end up dominating it due to genetics, that can be pointed out by misogynists as proof to secondary status of females.

As long as there are people who think that humans being different from each other is somehow bad and shameful there will be a problem squaring this circle. Those people exist in many places on the political spectrum, and I don't see them going away in my lifetime.

[Tamas]

Fair point Brain.

But equally if some trans women can just enter the women's competition and end up dominating it due to genetics, that can be pointed out by misogynists as proof to secondary status of females.

As long as there are people who think that humans being different from each other is somehow bad and shameful there will be a problem squaring this circle. Those people exist in many places on the political spectrum, and I don't see them going away in my lifetime.

Yes but when a choice HAS to be made between discriminating against cis women and discriminating against transgender people, should not the choice be to discriminate against the least number of people?

[grumbler]

Yes but when a choice HAS to be made between discriminating against cis women and discriminating against transgender people, should not the choice be to discriminate against the least number of people?

Why "discriminate against" anyone?  Just let performance determine the outcome.  Woman A was born with stronger lungs than woman B.  Should society "discriminate against" woman A when it comes to long-distance running?  If not, then why should it "discriminate against" woman C, born with testicles?

[Duque de Bragança]

Also, posters of a certain age will remember watching East German women compete. Seemed to work just fine.

Yes to the first one. No to the second one.

[Tamas]

Yes but when a choice HAS to be made between discriminating against cis women and discriminating against transgender people, should not the choice be to discriminate against the least number of people?

Why "discriminate against" anyone?  Just let performance determine the outcome.  Woman A was born with stronger lungs than woman B.  Should society "discriminate against" woman A when it comes to long-distance running?  If not, then why should it "discriminate against" woman C, born with testicles?

Fair enough but if that's the correct attitude then what exactly is the point of having a men/women division in sport? If effectively a person can join either based on self-declaration then it is utterly pointless to have both. Let's have THE sport, and then let the best win. We might end up with e.g. football where the top 4 leagues have barely any women in them unless they were born with testicles as you said, and non-testicled women might disappear from the top echelon of athletics, but apparently that is a small price to pay to ensure that no women gets discriminated based on the frivolous detail of birth sex.

[Josquius]

Yes but when a choice HAS to be made between discriminating against cis women and discriminating against transgender people, should not the choice be to discriminate against the least number of people?

Why "discriminate against" anyone?  Just let performance determine the outcome.  Woman A was born with stronger lungs than woman B.  Should society "discriminate against" woman A when it comes to long-distance running?  If not, then why should it "discriminate against" woman C, born with testicles?

The trouble there is as Tamas says if there's big prize money on the line then it will actually be tempting for a OK but not excellent male athlete to transition.

Thinking about this. I think with transmen we can safely say there should be no restrictions whatsoever. They don't have an advantage, in fact are at a disadvantage, so fair play to them for giving it a go.

With trans-women though.... Well it's an issue bigger than trans women. How do you even define a woman (for sport) . As mentioned Caster Semenya has really shaken things up. Over the decades the definition of a woman has changed many times and it has never hit on anything satisfactory.

I really wonder whether there needs be rules about being female since before puberty and some kind of system in place for handling appeals and designations on a case by case business.... Though the potential for corruption and special interests taking over looms large.

[Maximus]

Would it make sense to just have different testosterone level classes the same way some sports have different weight classes?

[Admiral Yi]

What's this called again? Sea lioning?

The rules for competition in sports are unrelated to the rules for gender reassignment.
Plenty of sports have rules governing who can and cannot compete without anyone thinking a guy in a wheelchair is somehow not a man because he is banned from professional basketball.
There are very valid questions to be answered in defining just where the lines are for people to be allowed to compete. There's no easy answers and it's daft to try and use it for general trans bashing.
What's hard about this?

I don't know what sealioning is.

You tell me what's hard about it.  You don't want people to use the fact that sports are iffy to conclude that "trans women are not legitimate women." 

Why?  My question is why.  You keep answering you really, really want people not to think that trans women are legitimate women as if that's an answer to why.  It's not an answer to why.