JK Rowling reveals she is survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault

[garbon]

If you're making an effort to pass as femme I could care less if you have a penis or not in the women's room.  I don't think you need a medical certificate in order to be trans - but I don't think the bar should be so low that self-identification with nothing else should be sufficient.

So if you look stereotypically feminine enough?

[chipwich]

Entirely the same thing.
If a trans woman isn't a woman then what is she?

She is a trans woman - her own unique thing.

That's not trans dogma, wherein a trans woman is a woman without question.

[Josquius]

Entirely the same thing.
If a trans woman isn't a woman then what is she?

She is a trans woman - her own unique thing.

Which is a type of woman. Different to a cisgender woman, but still a woman.
Deny the fact that a transsexual woman is woman and effectively you're denying that transsexualism is a thing. That that they can not have changed their gender. Its a common argument put up there that on the surface may not not seem so controversial but it very quickly without any leaps of logic effectively says anyone claiming to be a transgender woman is just a dude in a dress.

[crazy canuck]

Yikes.

Remember to take your meds dude.

And that was probably only after hearing him say his was an Obama Liberal.

[merithyn]

I get that trans people don't like to be "gatekeepered", and I understand how unlikely my above suggestion is, but I really dislike this notion that if you don't fully, 100% buy into a set of public policy goals you're completely opposed to the entire movement.  You can be against Black Lives Matter without being a racist, you can be opposed to the Green New Deal without being anti-environment, and you can want people to have a medical certificate before using a bathroom as a trans person without being anti-trans.

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree on most of your points here. Sure, you can be opposed to the Green New Deal without being anti-environment because that's a policy, and there are differing views on how policy should work.

But Black Lives Matter is a movement that says, "Black lives are as important as White lives, and should be granted the same respect." If you disagree with that, well, then, you are racist. You may disagree with how that movement acts - or players in that movement act - but if you say, "I disagree with BLM", you are saying that you do not fundamentally agree that Black lives are as important as White lives.

And if you are requiring laws be made for one group of people that is not required of others (must have official documentation that one is a specific gender, but only for transgendered people), you are absolutely being anti-trans.

Meri, Black Lives Matter is both a slogan, but also a movement.  And as a movement it has various policy goals.  Same thing with feminism.  Believing that women are equal to men is one thing, but feminism as a movement also has various policy goals attached.

So I believe that Black lives matter.  But I disagree with the Black Lives Matter movement when it says, for example, to defund the police.

You can ask a dozen different protesters in the BLM movement what their policy agenda is, and you'll likely get 25 different answers. The BLM is a movement, not a policy nor a push for a specific law. There are those within that movement who are pushing for specific laws, but one of the biggest complaints about the BLM is there is no clear policy or plan for them. So which is it? They are a movement with a specific goal/policy plan? Or are they a disorganized mass with no useful end game? (I would argue that feminism is the same. Ask 10 feminists what policies they support, you'll get 12 answers. The one obvious difference is abortion/reproductive rights for women, and for BLM to defund police, except that even that means something different to different people.)

So I think I said my piece on bathrooms.  I think that should be very simply resolved on a local, democratic basis that people should use the bathroom that corresponds to their overall appearance.  If you're making an effort to pass as femme I could care less if you have a penis or not in the women's room.  I don't think you need a medical certificate in order to be trans - but I don't think the bar should be so low that self-identification with nothing else should be sufficient.

That's out of step what most trans activists believe.  But I don't think it makes me anti-trans.

If you're requiring documentation that everyone is a specific gender, then great. If not, then it is an anti-trans rule. I don't understand how you can't understand that.

[viper37]

And really - I think we're a long way away from transgendered people being a threat to our survival as a species.  I'd be far more worried about the large number of heteronormative people out there not having kids by choice.

I've probably expressed my opinion badly.  It's not a subject I have read a lot on in english.

I did not mean to say transgenders were a threat to our survival as a species.   But it seems to me, that biologically, nature favours the reproduction of a species, in mammals like us, it means a male and female together. 

In the animal kingdom, we have observed that when the female population becomes very low, some animals will engage in homosexual behaviour.  But when it's the opposite, such behaviours do not seem to happen.  Animals are driven purely by instincts, unlike humans.  So I figure that biologically, nature intends for males&females to reproduce but in the absence of equilibrium something else happens.

Trying to reproduce that behaviour toward human and toward transgenderism is way outside my field of expertise, but I am really curious on the subject as to why there are so many and often in places where homosexuality is discriminated against. 

I do wonder if sometimes, some transgendered people aren't simply gay but can't reconcile that fact with their cultural&religious upbringing and begin to feel they must be borned of the wrong gender to feel such an attraction, such desires.

I just think there should be more medical research on the subject, so we can understand it better.  Until such a time, I think the best practice is still to accept the feelings of these people and accompany them through their transition process.  But I also feel like alternative theories are completely shut down instead of being studied.  Sometimes there are even people who realize they were not what they thought they were and want to go back, but can't.  And the result of such activism is there are people still suffering after their transition and still committing suicide. Had we had better psychological practices, maybe we could have catched these people before they went so far and establish a better diagnostic.

[viper37]

I am an Obama liberal forced to watch in horror as conservatives became demons of plague, greed, and hate while liberals abandon their principles and adopt a bizzare totalitarian attitude when gender politics occurs.

I would also define myself as socially liberal, and where I American, there's no doubt in my mind I would have voted Democrat at all federal elections since Clinton's election.

But I still disagree with you.  

I'm more on Valmy's side where ideas must be allowed to be expressly opened.  If someone is wrong, point to the facts saying otherwise.  Do not hesitate to challenge preconcieved ideas, one side or another, but do so on a rational basis as much as possible.

I only draw the line at hate speech, as defined by canadian laws&tribunals, I think it's an acceptable compromise we made, so far, our tribunals aren't ideologically compromised the way some US courts may be.

[viper37]

Mono is a different kind of fascist. They're both bad, but who's worse?

The answer is who cares.

neither are fascists, dude.  Just because someone is to your right doesn't make them nazis 

[Barrister]

If you're requiring documentation that everyone is a specific gender, then great. If not, then it is an anti-trans rule. I don't understand how you can't understand that.

I'm not saying anything about documentation.  I'm saying it an come down to common sense.  If you've got long hair, wearing a dress and makeup you can totally go in the women's washroom - I don't care that you have an adam's apple and stubble (or whatever combination traits you can think of).  But I can totally understand why women would object to a male-presenting individual going into the women's room claiming "I identify as female".

I don't think that's an anti-trans position at all.

[chipwich]

Mono is a different kind of fascist. They're both bad, but who's worse?

The answer is who cares.

neither are fascists, dude.  Just because someone is to your right doesn't make them nazis 

Calling someone a fascist over petty politics should be considered Holocaust minimization.

[viper37]

So I want trans women to be safe. At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he's a woman – and, as I've said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth. - JK Rowling

Denying transfolk* the use of bathrooms and dressing rooms that fit with their self-identity is denying them the ability to live their own truths.

First of all, I think this bathroom issue is silly.  People should be able to use the bathroom of their choice, but then again, I am a man, and I've been told before it's normal that women around me aren't taking chances because they simply don't know if I'm a good guy or a potential threat to their security, since there's apparently no city in the world where a women can safely walk alone at night and men can apparently go anywhere they want, alone, without ever being bothered by such a thing as mugging, robbery, assault or other unpleasanteries.
Imho, it is the same reasoning as JKR: victims of an agression fear for their security and are unwilling to take any kind of chances, however remote it might be.  In the case of JKR, it translates as "Men are the ennemies and they will use any trick, any subterfuge they can to assault us".  For others, it's something else.
So, yeah, I don't understand the fear of the bathroom.  You want to use a men's bathroom while I'm in there, go ahead.  As long as there are still doors to the toilet, I'll be ok
But maybe it's different for women.  Would you feel threatened if men at your job were using ladies' bathroom?  As a woman, would you be fine with unisex changing rooms?  If you see a person who obviously looks like a man but is wearing womens' clothing entering your changing room, do you feel insecure about it?  If he undresses and is clearly biologically a male except for the makeup and hairdo, would you accept to also undress as you would in any other situation, to go, say, to the pool or to the gym?  If you still had a teenage girl, would you be ok with having a boy declare he is female one day and wish to use the girls' changing room?  At what point would you be ok to let him in?

[viper37]

Calling someone a fascist over petty politics should be considered Holocaust minimization.

Half the politicians in the world should then be jailed along with half of their supporters.  Lots of Democrats and people on the left where calling Bush a fascist, IIRC.
It's stupid, but not criminal.

[chipwich]

Calling someone a fascist over petty politics should be considered Holocaust minimization.

Half the politicians in the world should then be jailed along with half of their supporters.  Lots of Democrats and people on the left where calling Bush a fascist, IIRC.
It's stupid, but not criminal.

I don't remember actual officeholders using the f word, primarily because it is not ethical to.

[viper37]

Also, civility is the cornerstone of civilization.

Does that mean Languish is uncivilized? 

[viper37]

Don't coddle lairs. They know that what they are doing is wrong. Anyone who has watched a Trump press conference knows that lairs are maggots eating at human civilization and should be treated as vermin.

Interesting that you would equate outright fabrication of facts like what Trump does with an interpretation of a very nuanced topic like Tyr has done.

That, to me, shows how little you understand rather than how wrong Tyr is.

He fabricated it out of thin air. Your failure to accept that shows you are no better than a Trump voter.

Well, you just said Zoupa was minimizing the Holocaust by calling you a nazi.  And you post stuff like that about Meri.   
Take a break, look back at what you are posting, what you are accusing others of being.  Frankly, to say Meri is no better than a Trump voter is the stupidest thing I've ever read on Languish, and maybe even in my life.
Breath, and look reasonably at what people are saying/writing, and try to honestly compare Meri with a Q-Anon/KKK type voting for Trump.  I've known Meri online for a while and I think you are extremely stupid for making such a statement about her.  Am I calling you worst than Hitler for this?
I'm not the best example of civility around here, but c'mon dude.  You go after Tyr, Zoupa (ok, he may deserve it -just joking ) and then Meri and everyone in the Democratic party.  And I still can't even figure what's your opinion on the issue we are discussing?
Try expressing your thoughts instead of going for the ad-hom and this thread can resume this complex issue.