Coronavirus Sars-CoV-2/Covid-19 Megathread

[Sheilbh]

I think the phrase "soft bigotry of low expectations" was one of the better ones uttered by GWB.  I suspect we're seeing it here.

I've never understood that phrase

But I also don't get why any of it matters. It's a public health issue in a pandemic. There is more reluctance to get the vaccine in BAME communities than the white population. We want more people to get the vaccine the way to do that is to work out what the drivers are and address them, plus a positive message (as I say there's tonnes of evidence from marketing and political campaigns that "other people are doing this you should do it to" is a more effective message than "you're wrong you fools"). I think the healthcare system is there to meet people where they are, especially during an emergency. The only thing that matters is can we get more people getting their jabs (without coercion).

Who cares if it's the "soft bigotry of low expectations" if it gets more people vaccinated?

[Eddie Teach]

I am not screaming

[Sheilbh]

In further "this shit works" news, care home deaths in Catalonia as % of total covid deaths:

That is great to see. There is some evidence here on care homes and for the other highest priority groups.

Also interesting thing I saw today on why B117 might be more transmissible. It actually has a lower viral load than the old variants, but it hangs around for longer. I'm not sure if that means we might need to increase the self-isolation time if you have symptoms/positive test just in case you have that variant?

[Tamas]

I think the phrase "soft bigotry of low expectations" was one of the better ones uttered by GWB.  I suspect we're seeing it here.

I've never understood that phrase

But I also don't get why any of it matters. It's a public health issue in a pandemic. There is more reluctance to get the vaccine in BAME communities than the white population. We want more people to get the vaccine the way to do that is to work out what the drivers are and address them, plus a positive message (as I say there's tonnes of evidence from marketing and political campaigns that "other people are doing this you should do it to" is a more effective message than "you're wrong you fools"). I think the healthcare system is there to meet people where they are, especially during an emergency. The only thing that matters is can we get more people getting their jabs (without coercion).

Who cares if it's the "soft bigotry of low expectations" if it gets more people vaccinated?

One of my issues (although to be fair, it's not important enough for me to research it) if whether any studies have been made to map out "vaccine scepticism" based on income and education.

I am fairly certain that BAME people (BTW do I belong to this category? I am a minority ethnicity, just happen to have the majority's skin colour ) are disproportionally overrepresented in the poorer income categories. At least in empirical evidence the higher the foodchain a job is, the more likely you only meet British (or at least, white) people doing it.

So, MAYBE this is only a race thing because our class system is racist, and if the country was monochrome white British we'd still have the same number of "sceptics".

[Sheilbh]

One of my issues (although to be fair, it's not important enough for me to research it) if whether any studies have been made to map out "vaccine scepticism" based on income and education.

[...]

So, MAYBE this is only a race thing because our class system is racist, and if the country was monochrome white British we'd still have the same number of "sceptics".

Yeah - agreed it would be useful to know. And it's actually really important to untangle race, class and education in this country - so the two groups that do wost in terms of educational attainment are white working class boys and black Caribbean boys. This has turned into a bit of a talking point on the right about how our system discriminates against white working class boys - I think if you include wider evidence it looks more like the issue is class (and, to an extent, region), regardless of race.

But I posted those tables from a couple of NHS Trust areas on up-take by race and deprivation. There is definitely an impact by level of wealth but there is also different up-take in different ethnic communities:



But regardless of the cause my point is the same whether it's poverty or lack of education or misinformation in certain communities, public health should be going into those communities and addressing the fears so people get the vaccine. Whether that just means more community health information in the most deprived wards, or getting messages to elderly people (who may not be very online) from community or faith leaders, or whatever else.

I am fairly certain that BAME people (BTW do I belong to this category? I am a minority ethnicity, just happen to have the majority's skin colour ) are disproportionally overrepresented in the poorer income categories. At least in empirical evidence the higher the foodchain a job is, the more likely you only meet British (or at least, white) people doing it.

I don't know and I get there are issues with the term BAME but it is helpful to have some catch-all phrase. I think it does include "Other White" which is the census category most Europeans fall into, but I'm not sure.

[Admiral Yi]

I've never understood that phrase

But I also don't get why any of it matters. It's a public health issue in a pandemic. There is more reluctance to get the vaccine in BAME communities than the white population. We want more people to get the vaccine the way to do that is to work out what the drivers are and address them, plus a positive message (as I say there's tonnes of evidence from marketing and political campaigns that "other people are doing this you should do it to" is a more effective message than "you're wrong you fools"). I think the healthcare system is there to meet people where they are, especially during an emergency. The only thing that matters is can we get more people getting their jabs (without coercion).

Who cares if it's the "soft bigotry of low expectations" if it gets more people vaccinated?

Another way to do that is with vaccine passports.  As you said, who cares how it's done if more people get vaccinated?

[Sheilbh]

Another way to do that is with vaccine passports.  As you said, who cares how it's done if more people get vaccinated?

Vaccine passports could definitely be part of it.

Obviously you'd need a workaround for the groups who legitimately shouldn't be getting the vaccine - people with strong allergies and some pregnant women.

But my issues with vaccine passports at the minute are generally practical. I posted a Twitter thread about databases on this in the Brexit thread. What's the database this information is on and can it talk to all the other systems it needs to for this to function? If not we need to build a new database and new IT infrastructure for this to work, quickly. Given the history of British state IT procurement, I'm not convinced that's attainable this year far less right now.

But separately I just don't think it works at this stage. We are still in lockdown and will probably be in lockdown until Easter (schools might re-open earlier). So the incentive you get from a vaccine passport doesn't exist: everywhere is closed. In addition at the minute our priority list is the elderly and the clinically extremely vulnerable. Even if we extend that to the people who'll be vaccinate by May - it's the other 50s and other at risk groups (including me ). I don't think that's necessarily a group that's going to be inspired by the incentives of being able to go clubbing again.

I think it'll definitely play a part in international travel/holidays - there's already some indication that I think Greece will only allow people to go on holiday if they've been vaccinated. I think that'll be a strong incentive, but again we are a very long way from people thinking they might be able to go on holiday.

[Josquius]

I completely welcome the talk of a vaccine passport and hope they hurry up with it, with the proviso that things are not too strict until everyone has had a chance to be vaccinated.
Punishing those who refuse vaccination is fine. Punishing the young because we have been waiting for our turn isn't.

[crazy canuck]

I completely welcome the talk of a vaccine passport and hope they hurry up with it, with the proviso that things are not too strict until everyone has had a chance to be vaccinated.
Punishing those who refuse vaccination is fine. Punishing the young because we have been waiting for our turn isn't.

I think the idea of a passport is terrible.  It would make it very difficult to enforce restrictions for those who are not vaccinated. 

[DGuller]

Jersey City sent out packets of five disposal masks to everyone a couple of months ago.  I finally used one of those masks, and wow.  Those were the best disposable masks I ever used by a huge margin.  The nose wire was strong enough to seal the top of the mask completely, the gaps around the cheek were also sealed well, the loops had the right level of tension and were strong enough, and the material was very nice on the skin.  I googled around to see who made them, so that I could order more for myself, and it turned out that I needed to order at least 1000, at a cost of more than $1 apiece.  No wonder they felt so nice.

This got me thinking about where I could buy disposable masks that are high in quality, and yet still priced in a sane way.  The quality of the disposable masks seems to vary so widely, and yet they all look more or less the same.  Has anyone ordered a pack from Amazon and was really impressed with the quality?

[The Brain]

I bought mine at my local convenience store, and am quite pleased with them. If you're in the neighborhood that's a great place to start.

[DGuller]

I bought mine at my local convenience store, and am quite pleased with them. If you're in the neighborhood that's a great place to start.

That's not very helpful.  I'm sure even in socialist Sweden there is more than one convenience store.

[Eddie Teach]

So go to the one in Stockholm, what's the problem?

[Josquius]

I completely welcome the talk of a vaccine passport and hope they hurry up with it, with the proviso that things are not too strict until everyone has had a chance to be vaccinated.
Punishing those who refuse vaccination is fine. Punishing the young because we have been waiting for our turn isn't.

I think the idea of a passport is terrible.  It would make it very difficult to enforce restrictions for those who are not vaccinated. 

Why's that?
Developing countries have been doing it for years.
Come up with something a bit more high tech than the yellow book and it should be pretty effective with only really determined con artists beating it

[celedhring]

The problem with passports is that you'll need to devote (waste) a lot of policing resources checking wether those guys at the pub all have a passport or not.

I suppose they could be useful for activities that already have checkups in place - like long distance / international travel.