Coronavirus Sars-CoV-2/Covid-19 Megathread

[Admiral Yi]

The discussion about minorities and vaccination sounds to me very much like "if you're a white anti-vaxer you're a nutjob, if you're a minority anti-vaxer, it's our fault."

[Grey Fox]

In America? Totally.

[Valmy]

In America? Totally.

This isn't America though...

[Sheilbh]

The discussion about minorities and vaccination sounds to me very much like "if you're a white anti-vaxer you're a nutjob, if you're a minority anti-vaxer, it's our fault."

It's not anti-vax sentiment - it's vaccine hesitancy and there's a really big difference.

The context matters - the polling in the UK shows that BAME communities are still more likely to accept a vaccine tomorrow than polling the general population in the US or several European countries, but they are less keen than the white population.

The issue isn't that there is a higher proportion of people saying "I do not want/am very unlikely to get a vaccine" - that proportion is basically consistent around 10-15% of white and different BAME populations (and is higher among young people who'll be vaccinated last anyway - so it'll probably shrink over time). But there are far more people in BAME communities who say they don't know or they're not sure. This is what I mean by it not being anti-vax but vaccine hesitancy.

And there are loads of reasons why people might be hesitant. These are vaccines that have been developed and approved at record speed; some of the vaccines involve new technology that's never been used before; the mRNA vaccines interact with your DNA (there's loads of nonsense about it changing your DNA). People aren't wrong or stupid to have those concerns and it's up to public health officials, the government, responsible media to allay those fears. So I've seen doctors on breakfast TV explaining how mRNA vaccines work with building blocks etc. When you fill in the form to say if you'd take a vaccine there's an option for "not sure" and you can identify what your fears/concerns are and get information from the NHS or your local health centre about it.

In addition to those fears there are specific reasons why hesitancy might be higher in BAME communities. It's fair to queries about whether the trials actually included enough non-white participants or are they actually more dangerous than we realise because we never looked. Similarly there's nothing wrong with wanting to understand if the vaccine is allowed under your faith (and there's been a lot of misinformation about this); or concerns following historical (and recent) scandals in, for example, Nigeria or Pakistan about medical trials/vaccines which are both countries with large diasporas in the UK; or general distrust of "establishment" figures and different experiences with the healthcare system. So we should look to address those specific issues - find other messengers (in that video I linked to above there's academics, actors, politicians, sportspeople etc) who aren't just Boris Johnson or another "establishment" figure; specifically address the religious issues - get scholars to make clear the vaccine is permissible and use mosques as we use cathedrals as vaccine centres. And most importantly, as in all marketing, use real examples of people in those communities getting the vaccine (again in that video people giving the example of their mum or dad getting it).

If you're a full-blown anti-vaxxer you're probably a nutjob. If you've got concerns or fears about the vaccines - that's kind of understandable and we should be trying to put them at rest.

[Tamas]

I am sorry but i am with Valmy and Yi: this whole approach to the problem seems pretty racist to me. It is dumb and dangerous to not have yourself vaccinated, and being dumb is handled with care and delicacy because it is judged to be coming from a racial background.

As a contrast I would highlight the ad campaign trying to guilt you into following lockdown restrictions ("look into their eyes and say you are doing everything you can to stop Coronavirus")

There are more valid reasons to oppose lockdown than vaccines, yet that is not handled with the same delicacy, because it is not considered to be a race thing.

[Josquius]

Screaming at people that they're dumb is unlikely to change their mind. Approaching them in a more careful and caring way is more likely to have an impact.

[Sheilbh]

I just don't get why this would be so vaccine specific. Do they generally just refuse all medicine?

Because vaccines are given to healthy people, no? It's not specific to vaccines, it's that vaccines are used on different people than medicines.

Having said that, all the therapeutics for covid have been existing drugs that are effective against covid. I think if a drug company developed a new drug that was approved in 9-10 months that there'd be a similar level of people doubting it/wanting more information.

I think it's legiitmate for people to have questions and it's on the public health authorities etc to bring people with them. And from my understanding that's been a a feature of vaccine campaigns for as long as they've existed.

There are more valid reasons to oppose lockdown than vaccines, yet that is not handled with the same delicacy, because it is not considered to be a race thing.

I'd handle people breaking or doubting lockdown with similar delicacy generally. But again I'd draw a line between most of those people and the active/professional "lockdown sceptics" who I think are basically like anti-vaxxers.

[Syt]

New year, new epidemic?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-20/russia-reports-first-cases-of-h5n8-bird-flu-in-humans-kldnv69e

Russia Reports First Cases of H5N8 Bird Flu in Humans

Russia said it found the world's first cases of H5N8 avian influenza in humans though the virus isn't yet spreading between people.

Authorities have sent information on the seven cases detected in workers at a poultry farm in southern Russia to the World Health Organization, Anna Popova, the country's public-health chief, said in televised comments on Saturday.

"It is not transmitted from person to person. But only time will tell how soon future mutations will allow it to overcome this barrier," she said. The discovery of this strain now "gives us all, the whole world, time to prepare for possible mutations and the possibility to react in a timely way and develop test systems and vaccines."

The affected workers at the poultry farm, where an outbreak among birds was reported in December, had mild cases and have recovered, Popova said.

According to the WHO website, "Though human infections with A(H5) viruses are rare and generally occur in individuals exposed to sick or dead infected birds (or their environments), they can lead to severe illness or death in humans." Six of 14 cases of H5N6 avian flu in humans reported since 2014 were fatal, the WHO said in a post dated Nov. 2016.

[Valmy]

Because vaccines are given to healthy people, no? It's not specific to vaccines, it's that vaccines are used on different people than medicines.

So do they just refuse all preventative medicine of any kind? Or just vaccines? Do they refuse to take physicals or go to regular checkups? Because they are afraid the NHS is out to sterilize them and do experiments?

Anyway a white American could just easily say that he will refuse to take vaccines because of the opioid addiction epidemic brought on by big pharma unless their church leader says it is ok. That might be a rationalization but it is still 100% anti-vax position. 

Oh and that study garbon linked to me was about not treating people with syphilis so why this paranoia would only be focused on preventative treatment doesn't make much sense. It was truly not anti-Vax then all treatments for diseases should have similar hestitancy.

[Valmy]

Screaming at people that they're dumb is unlikely to change their mind. Approaching them in a more careful and caring way is more likely to have an impact.

I am not screaming I am posting on a message board that 30 people read. It is anti-Vax plain and simple. We can be careful and caring all we want but we can never prove vaccines are not dangerous if people chose to believe, without evidence, that they are. So it is unlikely to have much of an impact, if we were the CIA trying to inject mind control drugs we would also act careful and caring would we not?

That is concerning and I have a hard time buying these rationalizations that somehow it is different.

[celedhring]

In further "this shit works" news, care home deaths in Catalonia as % of total covid deaths:

[Valmy]

New year, new epidemic?

One would think all this social distancing would slow the creation of these things.

[Valmy]

In further "this shit works" news, care home deaths in Catalonia as % of total covid deaths:

Yeah we are seeing dramatic decreases in the US since vaccination started.

[Sheilbh]

So do they just refuse all preventative medicine of any kind? Or just vaccines? Do they refuse to take physicals or go to regular checkups? Because they are afraid the NHS is out to sterilize them and do experiments?

FWIW I've never had a phyiscal or a check-up. Apparently you don't start getting them until you're 40. I just think that's the reason why vaccines tend to be more controversial.

I think any medication developed and approved in 9 months amid a lot of attention would be controversial - trial data doesn't normally lead the evening news.

Anyway a white American could just easily say that he will refuse to take vaccines because of the opioid addiction epidemic brought on by big pharma unless their church leader says it is ok. That might be a rationalization but it is still 100% anti-vax position.

But there's a difference between people saying they'll refuse a vaccine and people saying they're not sure and they want more information.

And to remove race from it I think it's absolutely legitimate for, for example, Catholics to want details of the Vatican's statement that the vaccines are morally permissible.

[DGuller]

I think the phrase "soft bigotry of low expectations" was one of the better ones uttered by GWB.  I suspect we're seeing it here.