Meanwhile in the Labour Party...

[Valmy]

He is not claiming he does not see them, he is claiming he does not care.

When someone in the US claims that they don't see color they aren't saying there is something wrong with their eyes.

What I don't understand is what is the desired attitude here? That they put the colour of a person's skin in to the focus of how they deal with them? Or what?

I don't know but not seeing color, while often done with noble intentions, tended to create blindness to systematic issues. So now we try to um...er...I guess keep ones background in mind while trying to treat people right. Or something.

[Josquius]

You see it a lot from the fasc in the UK too. Most of it is disingenuous, though I suspect honest ignorance with some. The whole thing is I never mention racial issues, you're the only ones making a song and dance about being black. You're the real racist. If we stop mentioning black history month and BLM and all that then there will be no racism.
As an aside the people saying this very often of course do have negative attitudes to black people and are lying with the core statement of not seeing colour.

The key difference with anti semitism in the UK is that there isnt anything like the systematic racism against Jewish people in the UK that you get against black people in the US. As said Jewish people are super integrated and the majority of people don't think about someone being Jewish as a factor in how to view them at all. I've known people for years without realising they were Jewish. Which as mentioned carries its own issues as when incidences of anti semitism do crop up they're very outside of the normal and there's a lot of disbelief and no standard procedure with how to handle it.

[Sheilbh]

fwiw I wasn't looking for anything juicy, I just find outsiders' observations of racism interesting.
It seems we often need to be told by outsiders how racist we are, before realizing it ourselves.

Yeah it's interesting because Fromtia's example from the US, I don't think that would fly in the UK.

I think part of what different cultures perceive as racist is their own social rules. So I know one friend lived in the Netherlands for a few years and found a far higher level of casual racism - aside from Zwarte Piet - which was normally justified from the Dutch perspective as being direct and honest. He gave the example of seeing someone on Tinder who put "no Arabs, no blacks" in their Tinder profile. He told us and we were all shocked by that, but he spoke with Dutch friends and they mainly thought that it was just telling people you're not interested and just being up-front.

So the flip-side of Dutch casual racism being seen as up-front or direct, I think very often in the UK you can get away with quite a lot of racism if you phrase it in a polite, non-aggressive, indirect way (which is maybe what would cause issues with the US example).

I don't know but not seeing color, while often done with noble intentions, tended to create blindness to systematic issues. So now we try to um...er...I guess keep ones background in mind while trying to treat people right. Or something.

I saw a piece somewhere recently on how this is still a big cultural conflict between the "Anglo-Saxons" and France but also other European countries, like Belgium and because they are member states the EU.

So I think that was in the context of the ongoing "Brussels so white" argument. The EU collects diversity statistics about their workforce but I think it only relates to gender and sexuality because race or religion are communal identities. It is really striking when you look at any pictures put out by any European institution - even things like the university in Florence - because basically everyone is white. The Anglo-Saxon view is exactly as you say if there are systemic issues you can't address them if you don't collect data to understand them. So you can't improve diversity if you don't measure it. But then the French approach is that by collecting data you are determining that individuals will be judged and treated based on their race/religion. I'm fairly in favour of the Anglo-Saxon approach personally, but they're both valid points.

[crazy canuck]

He is not claiming he does not see them, he is claiming he does not care.

When someone in the US claims that they don't see color they aren't saying there is something wrong with their eyes.

I see.  then I withdraw my conclusion they are not related.
I have never understood that American claim.  How is it that someone does not see colour.  It is kind of like saying all lives matter - it completely ignores how people of colour have more difficult lives over all.

When they say they say they don't see color they are trying to say that they don't care about color.  Hence the comparison to what Tyr was saying.

then I withdraw my disagreement with you.

[Sheilbh]

The key difference with anti semitism in the UK is that there isnt anything like the systematic racism against Jewish people in the UK that you get against black people in the US. As said Jewish people are super integrated and the majority of people don't think about someone being Jewish as a factor in how to view them at all. I've known people for years without realising they were Jewish. Which as mentioned carries its own issues as when incidences of anti semitism do crop up they're very outside of the normal and there's a lot of disbelief and no standard procedure with how to handle it.

I don't know if that necessarily means there's a lower level of bigotry, as much as that Jewish people are generally able to "pass". It's a bit similar to homophobia - there are loads of gays who people may never know are gay. I don't think that necessarily means anything about the level of homophobia. They're just not, generally visible minorities.

And a number of Synagogues in the UK require ongoing police protection and if you are visibly "Jewish" then you might face abuse. There's been several of those hidden camera things of someone spending a day wearing a kippah and they do get abused for it. There's also been the odd video of the bus or Tube racist having a go at visibly "Jewish" people.

[fromtia]

Yeah it's interesting because Fromtia's example from the US, I don't think that would fly in the UK.

Well, the Jew Hair comment was an absolute eye watering corker. Young man was a little bit country, if you will.

[fromtia]

fwiw I wasn't looking for anything juicy, I just find outsiders' observations of racism interesting.
It seems we often need to be told by outsiders how racist we are, before realizing it ourselves.

Ooh I remembered one - referring to Stoke Newington as Stoke Jewington. An otherwise charming and pleasant young fellow, but I thought that was an outlandish thing to say when I heard it. (In the UK, a few years ago)

[Admiral Yi]

Well, the Jew Hair comment was an absolute eye watering corker. Young man was a little bit country, if you will.

I learned about the Jewfro from Jewish friends and classmates.

[Maladict]

I think part of what different cultures perceive as racist is their own social rules. So I know one friend lived in the Netherlands for a few years and found a far higher level of casual racism - aside from Zwarte Piet - which was normally justified from the Dutch perspective as being direct and honest. He gave the example of seeing someone on Tinder who put "no Arabs, no blacks" in their Tinder profile. He told us and we were all shocked by that, but he spoke with Dutch friends and they mainly thought that it was just telling people you're not interested and just being up-front.

So the flip-side of Dutch casual racism being seen as up-front or direct, I think very often in the UK you can get away with quite a lot of racism if you phrase it in a polite, non-aggressive, indirect way (which is maybe what would cause issues with the US example).

Yeah agreed, although the "no Arabs, no blacks" is a little too up-front even for me.
I've never seen that but I'm not surprised to be honest.

Ooh I remembered one - referring to Stoke Newington as Stoke Jewington. An otherwise charming and pleasant young fellow, but I thought that was an outlandish thing to say when I heard it. (In the UK, a few years ago)

Ah right, yes that kind of stuff would probably fly here.

Last year I was waiting for a train when about 50 or so football hooligans disembarked shouting 'Gas the Jews'. Their team was playing against Ajax, which wears its Jewish background as a badge. It's disconcerting as hell and utterly despicable, but this still happens regularly.

[Sheilbh]

Last year I was waiting for a train when about 50 or so football hooligans disembarked shouting 'Gas the Jews'. Their team was playing against Ajax, which wears its Jewish background as a badge. It's disconcerting as hell and utterly despicable, but this still happens regularly.

Yeah. Football is separate. Spurs still get anti-semitic abuse like that (mainly from Chelsea, I think) but have their own issue with the "Yid Army" chants. David Baddiel's written about this:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/17/david-cameron-yid-really-is-race-hate-word

[Crazy_Ivan80]

So I think that was in the context of the ongoing "Brussels so white" argument [...] It is really striking when you look at any pictures put out by any European institution - even things like the university in Florence - because basically everyone is white.

it's a tangent on the labour party. Ponder it but no reply required:

[devil's advocate]Doesn't mean it's not diverse though. Plenty of cultures there. And I'm assuming not all of them will come from the same class either. And I can only hope not all of them adhere to the same set of ideas. And maybe a few of them aren't lawyertypes. There's more than just level of pigmentation to determine diversity.

these people saying "Brussels so white*", would they dare say the equivalent of the African Union? Or of ASEAN?
[/devil's advocate]

*That said: "Brussels so white" is clearly said by people who leave the city after working hours

[Maladict]

Yeah. Football is separate.

I'm resigned to it happening in stadiums, apparently these people need some kind of release and that's probably the safest place to let it happen.
But seeing it in normal society, I can't get used to it.

[Sheilbh]

[devil's advocate]Doesn't mean it's not diverse though. Plenty of cultures there. And I'm assuming not all of them will come from the same class either. And I can only hope not all of them adhere to the same set of ideas. And maybe a few of them aren't lawyertypes. There's more than just level of pigmentation to determine diversity.

Absolutely - that's partly what the whole idea of intersectionality is about.

these people saying "Brussels so white*", would they dare say the equivalent of the African Union? Or of ASEAN?
[/devil's advocate]

*That said: "Brussels so white" is clearly said by people who leave the city after working hours

I think so but it would be focused on the minorities in the African Union or ASEAN. And it is focused on the EU, from one article about this:

The EU may be respected for its defense of human rights worldwide but its own institutions have largely ignored evidence of racist harassment and violence across Europe, including at the hands of law enforcement agencies. Implementation of the EU's Race Equality Directive, which dates back to 2000 and calls on member countries to adopt legislation to address discrimination, also remains patchy. Few European leaders or policymakers challenged Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán's messaging on the need to protect a "besieged" Christian Europe from outsiders.

The EU institutions' own track record on racial diversity isn't very encouraging either. Although people from ethnic minority backgrounds make up around 10 percent of the EU's population — that's about 50 million people — they are severely underrepresented in EU bodies.

EU officials have become adept at talking about diversity in terms of the push to recruit and promote more women — but they routinely brush off questions regarding racial inclusion and diversity with statements that EU recruitment policies are "color blind."

A 2017 Diversity and Inclusion Charter promising to create "a better workplace for all — including women, staff with disabilities, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transsexual and intersex (LGBTI) staff and older staff" made no mention of the need to tackle the lack of ethnic and racial diversity within EU institutions. And according to the European Network Against Racism, women of color have largely not benefited from EU efforts to promote gender equality.

The EU has also fallen short in its response to the anti-racism protests sweeping across the Continent. Most European commissioners either stayed stoically silent or stumbled badly in their comments. When they did speak, they appeared either complacent as they deemed it unlikely that police brutality in Europe was as bad as in the U.S., or disingenuous in voicing surprise at Europe's racist reality.

It is ironic that one of the prime backers of a European Parliament resolution last week calling for EU action to combat structural racism, Pierrette Herzberger-Fofana, who is also Germany's first MEP of African descent, reported a traumatizing encounter with Belgian police the day before she spoke in plenary.

Commission President Ursula von der Leyen's speech in the Parliament last week sought to make amends, by acknowledging a lack of ethnic diversity in EU bodies and the need to fight both overt injustices and invisible biases.

But her message rang hollow to anti-racist groups who remember her praise for Greece as a "shield" against refugees and migrants and her stubborn commitment to tasking a commissioner to "protect" (later changed to "promote") a "European way of life," seen by many as a dog whistle to far-right populists.

It's fair to say von der Leyen and her team in the Commission are not used to grappling with racism in either their private or professional lives. Former British-Somali MEP Magid Magid isn't alone in questioning the potential relevance and impact of a debate on racial justice conducted by an all-white team of 27 women and men with no first-hand experience of racial discrimination.

The comments by Margaritas Schinas in the aftermath of the George Floyd killing were insane in their ignorance/arrogance:
"There is no doubt that Europe as a whole has been doing better than the United States in issues of race, also because we have better systems for social inclusion, protection, universal health care."
"And there's also a European tradition for protecting minorities, we have less issues than they have in the States."
"I do not think that we have issues now in Europe that blatantly pertain to police brutality or issues of race transcending into our systems, but we do have an issue in Europe, which is the issue of inequalities and income distribution — making the best for everyone of what we have."
"What I can say is that in Europe we keep our armies only for our foreign enemies."

My favourite was when he said Europe isn't complacent about this - but we are world champions in protecting minorities

Edit: And in their defence the Fundamental Rights Agency has done really good work on the "being black in Europe". But they publish the report and ultimately it's often about law enforcement which is a member state competence:
https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra_uploads/fra-2018-being-black-in-the-eu_en.pdf

It'd be interesting to see similar research for other minority groups.

[garbon]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/18/jeremy-corbyn-refused-labour-whip-despite-having-suspension-lifted

Keir Starmer denies Jeremy Corbyn Labour whip despite end of suspension

Keir Starmer has decided not to readmit his predecessor Jeremy Corbyn as a Labour MP, arguing that he has undermined efforts to restore the party's reputation in the Jewish community.

An NEC disciplinary panel lifted the suspension of Corbyn's party membership on Tuesday. That decision was made after he issued a conciliatory statement "clarifying" controversial remarks he made when the damning Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) report was published.

But in a strongly worded statement on Wednesday, Starmer said he would not be welcoming Corbyn back into the parliamentary Labour party (PLP).

"Jeremy Corbyn's actions in response to the EHRC report undermined and set back our work in restoring trust and confidence in the Labour party's ability to tackle antisemitism," Starmer said.

"In those circumstances, I have taken the decision not to restore the whip to Jeremy Corbyn. I will keep this situation under review."

Corbyn's supporters had insisted party rules meant he should be automatically readmitted, and the decision is likely to reignite the simmering civil war between Starmer and Labour leftwingers.

Starmer appeared to repudiate the NEC's decision, which was made under disciplinary rules now being reviewed as part of the response to the EHRC report.

He said: "The disciplinary process does not have the confidence of the Jewish community. That became clear once again yesterday.

"It is the task of my leadership to fix what I have inherited. That is what I am resolute in doing and I have asked for an independent process to be established as soon as possible."

[Tamas]

I like that he got an easy way to get rid of a destabilising rival and used it.