Meanwhile in the Labour Party...

[Razgovory]

He is not claiming he does not see them, he is claiming he does not care.

When someone in the US claims that they don't see color they aren't saying there is something wrong with their eyes.

[crazy canuck]

He is not claiming he does not see them, he is claiming he does not care.

When someone in the US claims that they don't see color they aren't saying there is something wrong with their eyes.

I have never understood that American claim.  How is it that someone does not see colour.  It is kind of like saying all lives matter - it completely ignores how people of colour have more difficult lives over all.

[Maladict]

He may very well be , anecdotally I've come across British people who say really bizarre anti semitic things casually that are absolutely jarring after living in the US for 24 years where anti semitism is a super fringe goose stepper past time.

Can you give some examples? I'm not doubting it, just interested.

[fromtia]

Can you give some examples? I'm not doubting it, just interested.

My Mum?

[Sheilbh]

I haven't read the report , only seen snippets posted here and there, but presumably if I take the time to dig into it, I'll find it pretty damning? Again, I'm just trying to make sense of this.

Probably not.

It's drier than that because it's by the body that investigates breaches of the Equality Act so it's not really a big thing about whether or not there's anti-semitism (though, as they note there have been multiple reports by, for and about anti-semitism in the Labour Party in the last 5 years) but whether, in dealing with that, Labour's in breach of that law. It's more about institutional issues - so can a Jewish person complaining about anti-semitism get a fair go or not. They found there were examples of discrimination, harassment, political interference and a lack of leadership in dealing with anti-semitism as an institution.

He may very well be , anecdotally I've come across British people who say really bizarre anti semitic things casually that are absolutely jarring after living in the US for 24 years where anti semitism is a super fringe goose stepper past time.

Yeah - the one thing he's done or said on this that really jarred with me was the line about Zionists not getting English irony despite living in this country for a long time and often their whole lives. Because it's just such a banal, pub bore, Nigel Farage a few pints down in the golf club bar kind of a remark. The mural incident was also pretty bad.

But my view is that it doesn't really matter whether Corbyn or Labour are anti-semitic or not. I don't particularly care what's going on in their soul, because the experience of Jewish Labour members, activists, councillors and MPs was that they were being victimised and when they complained nothing was done. And I think we spend too much time trying to work out what's going on in someone's head in whether they're racist or not, when we should focus on the experience of the minority group.

If you care about your Jewish party members or any other minority and they say that - then you just apologise and fix it until they don't feel that way. You don't spend ages loudly stating you're not racist and you're just being misunderstod or it's a smear campaign/factional argument. It's why I like how Naz Shah dealt with complaints about what she'd said in the past.

[garbon]

But my view is that it doesn't really matter whether Corbyn or Labour are anti-semitic or not. I don't particularly care what's going on in their soul, because the experience of Jewish Labour members, activists, councillors and MPs was that they were being victimised and when they complained nothing was done. And I think we spend too much time trying to work out what's going on in someone's head in whether they're racist or not, when we should focus on the experience of the minority group.

If you care about your Jewish party members or any other minority and they say that - then you just apologise and fix it until they don't feel that way. You don't spend ages loudly stating you're not racist and you're just being misunderstod or it's a smear campaign/factional argument. It's why I like how Naz Shah dealt with complaints about what she'd said in the past.

Well said.

[Maladict]

Can you give some examples? I'm not doubting it, just interested.

My Mum?

Examples of what they say.

[fromtia]

.
But my view is that it doesn't really matter whether Corbyn or Labour are anti-semitic or not. I don't particularly care what's going on in their soul, because the experience of Jewish Labour members, activists, councillors and MPs was that they were being victimised and when they complained nothing was done. And I think we spend too much time trying to work out what's going on in someone's head in whether they're racist or not, when we should focus on the experience of the minority group.

If you care about your Jewish party members or any other minority and they say that - then you just apologise and fix it until they don't feel that way. You don't spend ages loudly stating you're not racist and you're just being misunderstod or it's a smear campaign/factional argument. It's why I like how Naz Shah dealt with complaints about what she'd said in the past.

Well I certainly agree with you wholeheartedly in this regard.

[fromtia]

Examples of what they say.

The sorts of "pub bore - nigel farage"  type thing that Sheilbh alludes to. Just to beat up on my mother for a moment - and shes a wonderful person - she lived in Tel Aviv for 12 years, worked for a EU organization building medical infrastructure for a putative Palestinian state, is a political conservative in the British sense and I think is overall supportive of Israel (whatever that means) but shes said things to me that I find totally bizarre - low grade "the jews" kind of stuff. Its possible that Im not understanding the context and She also says equally bizarre things about Palestinians, Egyptians and so on. Also Asians in general (despite the fact that her sons gf of 6 years is asian american). She has never said anything odd about black people or people from India or Pakistan. Overall a bit critical of immigrants - despite her one son being one, and her other son being married to one.

[Maladict]

Examples of what they say.

- low grade "the jews" kind of stuff.

Right, still pretty vague 

So how is it different from American pub-bore-equivalent stuff, that makes it so jarring? Specifically because the Jews are singled out?

[fromtia]

Right, still pretty vague 

So how is it different from American pub-bore-equivalent stuff, that makes it so jarring? Specifically because the Jews are singled out?

I hate to disappoint but I dont think I'm going to be able to offer you the juicy meat that you seek. It's been 24 years since I lived in the UK and I only go there once a year for two weeks at a time. I've only heard one antisemitic comment in 24 years in the US* but on numerous occasions (not just my mum) in the UK have had to grit my teeth through observations about jewish bankers controlling everything and so forth.

* "Do you mean that one guy with the Jew hair?"

[Razgovory]

He is not claiming he does not see them, he is claiming he does not care.

When someone in the US claims that they don't see color they aren't saying there is something wrong with their eyes.

I have never understood that American claim.  How is it that someone does not see colour.  It is kind of like saying all lives matter - it completely ignores how people of colour have more difficult lives over all.

When they say they say they don't see color they are trying to say that they don't care about color.  Hence the comparison to what Tyr was saying.

[Razgovory]

Happily, Labor lost the election and I think the labor party will be saved.  The Republican party on the other hand...

[Maladict]

I hate to disappoint but I dont think I'm going to be able to offer you the juicy meat that you seek. It's been 24 years since I lived in the UK and I only go there once a year for two weeks at a time. I've only heard one antisemitic comment in 24 years in the US* but on numerous occasions (not just my mum) in the UK have had to grit my teeth through observations about jewish bankers controlling everything and so forth.

* "Do you mean that one guy with the Jew hair?"

fwiw I wasn't looking for anything juicy, I just find outsiders' observations of racism interesting.
It seems we often need to be told by outsiders how racist we are, before realizing it ourselves.

[Tamas]

He is not claiming he does not see them, he is claiming he does not care.

When someone in the US claims that they don't see color they aren't saying there is something wrong with their eyes.

What I don't understand is what is the desired attitude here? That they put the colour of a person's skin in to the focus of how they deal with them? Or what?