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The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump

Started by FunkMonk, September 24, 2019, 02:10:43 PM

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Admiral Yi

#495
November 16, 2019, 08:33:49 PM
Quote from: frunk on November 16, 2019, 08:27:25 PM
By that point the horse was already out of the barn.  Turkey invaded and the US left.  Our leverage is gone and the only reason Turkey slowed up was due to the Kurds making a deal with Russia/Syria.  So sure Trump protested loudly but Turkey got what they wanted from Trump.  So sure they got Trump to say different things, but he didn't reverse course or effectively amend the problem.

Are you saying that the only way Senate Republicans could really demonstrate juice is if they got a war with Turkey?

Razgovory

#496
November 17, 2019, 12:38:18 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 16, 2019, 08:06:32 PM
I've disagreed before and I'll disagree again.  Within the space of a day Trump went from green lighting Turkey and calling Kurds fags who didn't help enough at Verdun to threatening the mother of all sanctions if Turkey didn't wise up.  The intervening event was Graham and some other dude introducing anti-Turkish, pro-Kurdish legislation in the Senate.


And then Trump reverse himself again declared that everything is hunky-dory.  What did Graham actually get?  The Kurds were forced out, Russian and Turkey made deal to end the fighting and divide up influence in Syria.  For his part, Trump declared that he had made a deal with no one else and then claimed to be moving soldiers to protect Assad's oil for some reason.  I have a feeling that nobody told Trump that you need to hold the end of a pipeline to get the oil not the beginning.

I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Admiral Yi

#497
November 17, 2019, 12:54:01 AM
Well no he didn't.  He hasn't gone back to badmouthing the Kurds, saying everyone has been fighting each other for thousands of years, or inventing connections between countries not taking back their ISIS fighters and a Turkish buffer zone.

You already know what Graham got.  What you're objecting to now is that the outcome is not optimal.  That's not the statement I originally objected to.

The Minsky Moment

#498
November 17, 2019, 11:20:48 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 17, 2019, 12:54:01 AM
You already know what Graham got. 

Nothing of substance. Trump made a twitter threat, then Pence and Pompeo came in as a clean up crew with a deal that cemented the Kurdish sell-out with some attempted face saving rhetoric.

Raz's point is that all influence with Trump is illusory because his brain sieve causes anything you tell him to vanish within hours unless it accords with whatever he wanted to do anyways for his idiot reasons.  Every cabinet "adult" who thought they could play this influence game is now gone.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Razgovory

#499
November 17, 2019, 11:25:50 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 17, 2019, 12:54:01 AM
Well no he didn't.  He hasn't gone back to badmouthing the Kurds, saying everyone has been fighting each other for thousands of years, or inventing connections between countries not taking back their ISIS fighters and a Turkish buffer zone.

You already know what Graham got.  What you're objecting to now is that the outcome is not optimal.  That's not the statement I originally objected to.


No, I don't know what Graham got.  The problem was not that Trump said nasty things about Kurds, it was that Turkish forces were invading and murdering Kurds.  The Turks reached their objective and the fighting stopped.  They have their buffer zone. They are still there. And he invited Erdogan to come to Washington to show Republican Senators some loopy propaganda about how bad the Kurds are.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Berkut

#500
November 17, 2019, 11:37:00 AM
Are you guys really wondering why the Republicans have not turned on Trump? Isn't that obvious?

It isn't because they are afraid of him, and it isn't because they think they will get primaried. It isn't because they are slavishly loyal to him.

It is because they think at the end of the day he is right.

The only Republicans left after the Tea Party took over are those who actually believe that the Dems are trying to destroy America, and their party is more important than America, because their party IS America.

If you were the kind of Republican who put country over Party, you were purged long before Trump ever came along.

The Republican Party of today is a bigoted, intolerant, anti-science party of spite, intolerance, religious fanaticism and fear that white men are being replaced. That is all it is anymore. If you believe that, then you are perfectly correct to defend Trump no matter what, because no matter how terrible he is, he is still vastly preferable to the alternative.

There is nothing more to it than that. It really is just that simple.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

select * from users where clue > 0
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Hamilcar

#501
November 17, 2019, 11:42:00 AM
Trump went to Walter Reed yesterday and hasn't been seen since....  :hmm:

HisMajestyBOB

#502
November 17, 2019, 12:12:36 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 17, 2019, 11:37:00 AM
Are you guys really wondering why the Republicans have not turned on Trump? Isn't that obvious?

It isn't because they are afraid of him, and it isn't because they think they will get primaried. It isn't because they are slavishly loyal to him.

It is because they think at the end of the day he is right.

The only Republicans left after the Tea Party took over are those who actually believe that the Dems are trying to destroy America, and their party is more important than America, because their party IS America.

If you were the kind of Republican who put country over Party, you were purged long before Trump ever came along.

The Republican Party of today is a bigoted, intolerant, anti-science party of spite, intolerance, religious fanaticism and fear that white men are being replaced. That is all it is anymore. If you believe that, then you are perfectly correct to defend Trump no matter what, because no matter how terrible he is, he is still vastly preferable to the alternative.

There is nothing more to it than that. It really is just that simple.

:yes:
Three lovely Prada points for HoI2 help

frunk

#503
November 17, 2019, 12:19:17 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 16, 2019, 08:33:49 PM
Are you saying that the only way Senate Republicans could really demonstrate juice is if they got a war with Turkey?

No.

The Brain

#504
November 17, 2019, 02:32:51 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 17, 2019, 11:37:00 AM
Are you guys really wondering why the Republicans have not turned on Trump? Isn't that obvious?

It isn't because they are afraid of him, and it isn't because they think they will get primaried. It isn't because they are slavishly loyal to him.

It is because they think at the end of the day he is right.

The only Republicans left after the Tea Party took over are those who actually believe that the Dems are trying to destroy America, and their party is more important than America, because their party IS America.

If you were the kind of Republican who put country over Party, you were purged long before Trump ever came along.

The Republican Party of today is a bigoted, intolerant, anti-science party of spite, intolerance, religious fanaticism and fear that white men are being replaced. That is all it is anymore. If you believe that, then you are perfectly correct to defend Trump no matter what, because no matter how terrible he is, he is still vastly preferable to the alternative.

There is nothing more to it than that. It really is just that simple.

:yes:
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Admiral Yi

#505
November 17, 2019, 09:12:57 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 17, 2019, 11:20:48 AM
Nothing of substance. Trump made a twitter threat, then Pence and Pompeo came in as a clean up crew with a deal that cemented the Kurdish sell-out with some attempted face saving rhetoric.

Raz's point is that all influence with Trump is illusory because his brain sieve causes anything you tell him to vanish within hours unless it accords with whatever he wanted to do anyways for his idiot reasons.  Every cabinet "adult" who thought they could play this influence game is now gone.

Which one is it Joan, did Trump change course in a nonsubstantive way because of Graham, or did he do it for his own idiotic reasons?

The Minsky Moment

#506
November 18, 2019, 03:31:22 AM
The only substantive change was going from passively backing the Kurds to actively betraying them; I have no reason to believe Graham contributed to that. I don't know exactly what prompted the twitter threat - my guess would be very negative press from sources that usually back him. He does seem to like threatening economic sanctions against other countries - he previously made a very similar threat against Turkey over Brunson.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

jimmy olsen

#507
November 20, 2019, 12:48:10 AM
Seemed like a bad day for Trump.

Even the GOP witnesses all said Trump's actions were inappropriate.
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

Habbaku

#508
November 20, 2019, 11:25:47 AM
Trump's defenders are now attacking Sondland as a member of the Deep State and as a reason for Trump being elected in the first place.

Sondland donated $1m to Trump's 2016 campaign. He was appointed by Trump.

They really do have complete contempt for their audience.
The medievals were only too right in taking nolo episcopari as the best reason a man could give to others for making him a bishop. Give me a king whose chief interest in life is stamps, railways, or race-horses; and who has the power to sack his Vizier (or whatever you care to call him) if he does not like the cut of his trousers.

Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people.
-J. R. R. Tolkien

DGuller

#509
November 20, 2019, 11:34:57 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on November 20, 2019, 11:25:47 AM
Trump's defenders are now attacking Sondland as a member of the Deep State and as a reason for Trump being elected in the first place.

Sondland donated $1m to Trump's 2016 campaign. He was appointed by Trump.

They really do have complete contempt for their audience.
To be fair, their intended audience has a complete contempt for itself.
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