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The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump

Started by FunkMonk, September 24, 2019, 02:10:43 PM

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Habbaku

#345
October 22, 2019, 07:20:33 PM
I wonder if this will be enough evidence to convince some of the GOP.

Nah, who am I kidding? They'll just screech about the Deep State.
The medievals were only too right in taking nolo episcopari as the best reason a man could give to others for making him a bishop. Give me a king whose chief interest in life is stamps, railways, or race-horses; and who has the power to sack his Vizier (or whatever you care to call him) if he does not like the cut of his trousers.

Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people.
-J. R. R. Tolkien

jimmy olsen

#346
October 22, 2019, 07:22:55 PM
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

Admiral Yi

#347
October 22, 2019, 07:31:08 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on October 22, 2019, 07:20:33 PM
I wonder if this will be enough evidence to convince some of the GOP.

Nah, who am I kidding? They'll just screech about the Deep State.

The officially sanctioned tag line for this particular incident is "no quid pro quo."

Hamilcar

#348
October 22, 2019, 07:36:06 PM
The TV coverage of the Senate trial will be the highest rated program of all time. Especially when Trump represents himself.

Razgovory

#349
October 22, 2019, 07:55:11 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 22, 2019, 07:31:08 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on October 22, 2019, 07:20:33 PM
I wonder if this will be enough evidence to convince some of the GOP.

Nah, who am I kidding? They'll just screech about the Deep State.

The officially sanctioned tag line for this particular incident is "no quid pro quo."


That's sort of out the window after the Chief of Staff admitted to a Quid Pro Quo.  Not that it was a very good defense.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Valmy

#350
October 22, 2019, 08:04:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 22, 2019, 07:31:08 PM
The officially sanctioned tag line for this particular incident is "no quid pro quo."

Considering that has been the cover for political corruption in this country for...um...a really long time I cannot blame them for trying.

Of course Hans would call this free speech.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

jimmy olsen

#351
October 23, 2019, 04:01:35 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on October 22, 2019, 07:36:06 PM
The TV coverage of the Senate trial will be the highest rated program of all time. Especially when Trump represents himself.
:lmfao:
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

Hamilcar

#352
October 23, 2019, 06:37:11 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 23, 2019, 04:01:35 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on October 22, 2019, 07:36:06 PM
The TV coverage of the Senate trial will be the highest rated program of all time. Especially when Trump represents himself.
:lmfao:
Of course he's going to represent himself. He has the best words.

The Minsky Moment

#353
October 23, 2019, 11:45:36 AM
Tim Morrison's testimony is being rescheduled due to the Cummings death.  If he corroborates Taylor, the last shred of Trump's Latin defense is gone.

Then all that's left is the it's not a federal crime defense. 
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Razgovory

#354
October 23, 2019, 11:57:12 AM
The defense I keep seeing is that Donald Trump should be able to cross examine witnesses and confront his accuser.  Something that doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

The Minsky Moment

#355
October 23, 2019, 12:26:48 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 23, 2019, 11:57:12 AM
The defense I keep seeing is that Donald Trump should be able to cross examine witnesses and confront his accuser.  Something that doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.

Under the criminal law, the analogy would be that targets of a grand jury investigation would be able to confront and cross-examine GJ witnesses. Which obviously they can't do.  It's always amusing to find these authoritarian types magically transforming into radical civil libertarians the moment an investigation goes against they way they'd like it.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Razgovory

#356
October 23, 2019, 12:46:58 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 23, 2019, 12:26:48 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 23, 2019, 11:57:12 AM
The defense I keep seeing is that Donald Trump should be able to cross examine witnesses and confront his accuser.  Something that doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.

Under the criminal law, the analogy would be that targets of a grand jury investigation would be able to confront and cross-examine GJ witnesses. Which obviously they can't do.  It's always amusing to find these authoritarian types magically transforming into radical civil libertarians the moment an investigation goes against they way they'd like it.


That's what I thought, though I thought of it as:

Criminal investigation----> Grand Jury ----->Criminal trial
Congressional hearings ----> Impeachment -----> Senate Trial.

Somehow I don't think they would approve of the police being forced to give organized crime figures* lists of people who made criminal complaints or claim to have witnessed illegal activity prior to a criminal trial.

*Organized crime figures that are Russian, Ukrainian or named Trump are fine.  In fact, Guilliani may have done just that...

I took a gander at the Federalist papers regarding impeachment and noted that President does the get to face his accusers:  the US Senate.

I think they have tested their final defense: Get Over it.  Trump can do whatever he wants.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

The Minsky Moment

#357
October 23, 2019, 01:09:34 PM
The House has the power to impeach (indict) and thus has the functional role of a grand jury in an ordinary criminal case.  The witness depositions and subpoenas are the functional equivalent of a grand jury subpoena.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

The Minsky Moment

#358
October 23, 2019, 01:24:52 PM
May also be worth pointing out that the concept of "quid pro quo", unlike "collusion," is a pretty well-defined concept in federal law, in connection with sexual harassment cases.  You don't need an express condition to be verbalized to establish a quid pro quo - it is enough to show that a benefit was withheld for an improper purpose even if the condition wasn't communicated directly to the victim, or to provide evidence of an implicit condition.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Barrister

#359
October 23, 2019, 01:31:58 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 23, 2019, 11:45:36 AM
Tim Morrison's testimony is being rescheduled due to the Cummings death.  If he corroborates Taylor, the last shred of Trump's Latin defense is gone.

Then all that's left is the it's not a federal crime defense.

I think the last line of defence here is "this is bad, but not bad enough for impeachment".
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.
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