The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[Josquius]

So....are we talking actual prison terms for the Catalan government here?

[Drakken]

So....are we talking actual prison terms for the Catalan government here?

Yep.

[crazy canuck]

Also, and at the behest of the two biggest Catalonian banks, every major bank in Spain signed an agreement last week vowing not to forward any revenue to a hypothetical Catalonian government.

Well, that is it then isn't it.  No internal funding, no external funding - what plan do the separatists have? 

[CountDeMoney]

What does King Felipe say about all this? Is he calling up the troops?

[Barrister]

Also, and at the behest of the two biggest Catalonian banks, every major bank in Spain signed an agreement last week vowing not to forward any revenue to a hypothetical Catalonian government.

Well, that is it then isn't it.  No internal funding, no external funding - what plan do the separatists have?

I'm sure there's some Russian banks that would be happy to lend...

[crazy canuck]

So....are we talking actual prison terms for the Catalan government here?

The CBC is reporting that the prosecutorial office in Madrid is preparing to bring a number of charges of treason.

[Iormlund]

So....are we talking actual prison terms for the Catalan government here?

Yes.

Rumor has it that what tipped the balance yesterday was that Puigdemont could not get Rajoy to guarantee that he would have immunity from prosecution.

[mongers]

Also, and at the behest of the two biggest Catalonian banks, every major bank in Spain signed an agreement last week vowing not to forward any revenue to a hypothetical Catalonian government.

Well, that is it then isn't it.  No internal funding, no external funding - what plan do the separatists have?

Blood, broken-bones and bodies in the streets to sanctify the revolution.

[Iormlund]

So....are we talking actual prison terms for the Catalan government here?

The CBC is reporting that the prosecutorial office in Madrid is preparing to bring a number of charges of treason.

Rebellion. Treason has to involve a foreign country and is judged by military tribunal, IIRC

[Berkut]

Interesting.

Is there some reason you are arguing that we should ignore the wishes of the non-white population when it comes to determining the legitimacy of a secession movement on the basis of the opinions of the people who live in the areas in question?

Is there some reason that you are ignoring what I said about slavery?

The only real moral ground for fighting the south was the argument that slavery was immoral (and that the slaves had no voice in whether or not to secede), but that of course was not the ground that Lincoln originally claimed in the war.

That isn't relevant to your claim that the North had no legitimate grounds to use violence against the south, because the south had popular support.

I don't think there was overwhelming popular support at all (which is the part I am criticizing), unless for some bizarre reason you decide that the opinion of blacks don't count. Can you at least conceded that maybe 3 out 5 could count?

Under the system of slavery as it existed at the time, the opinion of slaves did not count.  They were property, not people.

We are talking about the concept of legitimacy, which is not a legal concept at all, essentially by definition. A system where some portion of the people deny basic rights to another portion of the people, and then claim legitimacy on the basis of "democracy" is the very definition of a *illegitimate* democartic system.

The Union would have had every legitimacy in the world if it said "it is monstrous to hold human beings as property.  They should be given their full voice, and we're prepared to go to war to see this happen."

I actually think that is basically what happened. It was not that direct of course, but the South seceeded BECAUSE a large enough portion of the greater population had said essentially that abolition was coming. Allvia the democratic process, and all while that same process denied the rights of people who would have a rather vested interest in the question the right to express their opinion.

Indeed, it was actually worse than that, since the system in place actually made it so that to the extent they WERE counted, they were counted in a manner that gave their 60% voice to the very people who used it to try to keep them enslaved.

And *despite* all that, the writing for slavery was still on the wall. The south seceeded because they could read that writing as well as anyone else.

It was always about slavery, start to finish.

And the North went to war to preserve the very Union that had just basically said "Yeah, slavery is going to end at some point, and certainly will not be allowed to spread further".

But that's not how it started.  Lincoln's casus belli was to "preserve the union", but it seemed pretty clear that the majority of the south the majority of voters supported secession.

...because they wanted to own slaves.

Lincoln's cassus belli was to perserve a Union that had just made it clear that slavery was not going to be tolerated forever. You cannot separate those things.

Look this isn't meant as some criticism - you guys got there in the end.  But viewing what is going on in Spain through the lens of the Civil War is somewhat flawed, because "preserving the union" isn't, by itself, a very good basis to deny independence to a region.

Preserving the union is a damn good reason when the only reason the union needs to be preserved at all is because some people have realized that chattel slavery cannot survive within it.

And I'm pretty sure I never used the word "overwhelming".  If I did, and that is the word you are objecting to, I cheerfully withdraw it.

My point is simply that there was no real "popular support" for secession unless you take the rather bizarre position that black people ought not to be considered in that calculus for what is considered popular support.

I've always thought that was an odd position to take - that if you enslave people, and then ask the non-slaves what they think about that, why would you fucking care what they think?

[derspiess]

The company I consult with is noticing an uptick in debit/credit card declines in Catalonia.

[crazy canuck]

Also, and at the behest of the two biggest Catalonian banks, every major bank in Spain signed an agreement last week vowing not to forward any revenue to a hypothetical Catalonian government.

Well, that is it then isn't it.  No internal funding, no external funding - what plan do the separatists have?

Blood, broken-bones and bodies in the streets to sanctify the revolution.

Based on Iormlund's other post - more like a sacrifice to a vain attempt by one man to avoid the consequences of his actions. 

[celedhring]

So....are we talking actual prison terms for the Catalan government here?

The CBC is reporting that the prosecutorial office in Madrid is preparing to bring a number of charges of treason.

Rebellion charges. 30 years in the slammer.

[CountDeMoney]

The company I consult with is noticing an uptick in debit/credit card declines in Catalonia.

www.kkkshop.com

[celedhring]

The company I consult with is noticing an uptick in debit/credit card declines in Catalonia.

Can you ellaborate? Like today or for the past weeks, or...? Is it a large uptick?