The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[celedhring]

All very calm today. No demos, no riots. Deafening silence from the separatist government. They didn't even come out last night to salute the crowds celebrating independence in front of the regional government. The Spanish flag still flies on the building.

This is weird. I hope it's not the calm before the storm.

[celedhring]

Catalan President giving a speech in one hour. Leaks claim that he'll reject his dismissal, possibly call for a "Constituent" election so the mess will go on. It was too good to be true.

[mongers]

Maybe there's more legitimacy to our Wessex nationalist cause than I guessed. 

Raise the dragon standard at the Vale of the White Horse and seize any Danes you encounter 

Food for thought, maybe a new venture. 

[celedhring]

Catalan President refuses his dismissal in a recorded message from an unknown location in Girona. He's going full Bin Laden now.

Calls for "peaceful and democratic opposition" to Article 155. This hopefully means no rioting while Madrid takes over. Which is good. Possibly means separatists will call to boycott the December election, which is not good.

Honestly, the feeling I get is that they really don't know what to do right now, since his message was really vague and didn't contain a single actionable item.

[The Minsky Moment]

So Oex would you agree the Confederacy was justified in seceding, and Lincoln was wrong to use force to defend the union?

It's an interesting topic, but I don't want it to hijack this thread with another american-centric discussion.

Obviously, as this thread reveals, people read independence movements from the sort of precedents they have appropriated - American Civil War, Quebec independence, Brexit/Scotland.

All precedents have some relevance.  Before committing to a position, it makes some sense to consider the broader implications of that position, for precedents both past and present.

[Oexmelin]

All precedents have some relevance.  Before committing to a position, it makes some sense to consider the broader implications of that position, for precedents both past and present.

Feel free to begin a different thread if you think I haven't. 

[Valmy]

Perhaps you're right - that the Union was always going to free the slaves and what Lincoln said above was sophistry.  Lincoln did sign the Emancipation Proclamation a few months after writing the above words.

But his words above, and at other times, were pretty clear on the subject.

My God. That quote has a context. Don't fall for this neo-Confederate trick of taking quotes and events out of context to advance their version of events. I don't how you can be so profoundly ignorant of Lincoln and the Civil War after we have talked about it so much to the point it is a meme but if you want to discuss it further we can start another thread.

In any case this case well illustrates a rare example where a secessionist movement does have a strong mandate ( in some, not all, of the states anyway) but profoundly fails the first test so in my eyes was not legitimate.

[Iormlund]

I'm sure it is for the best but I'm finding this anti-climax quite unsatisfying. Boring, even.

[dps]

Perhaps you're right - that the Union was always going to free the slaves and what Lincoln said above was sophistry.  Lincoln did sign the Emancipation Proclamation a few months after writing the above words.

But his words above, and at other times, were pretty clear on the subject.

My God. That quote has a context. Don't fall for this neo-Confederate trick of taking quotes and events out of context to advance their version of events. I don't how you can be so profoundly ignorant of Lincoln and the Civil War after we have talked about it so much to the point it is a meme but if you want to discuss it further we can start another thread.

In any case this case well illustrates a rare example where a secessionist movement does have a strong mandate ( in some, not all, of the states anyway) but profoundly fails the first test so in my eyes was not legitimate.

Yes.  What Lincoln was saying was that his war goals were to end the succession and preserve the Union, and that the issue of slavery was not necessarily particularly relevant to those goals.  As for as his political goals, though, as opposed to his war goals, he was still an Abolitionist.

[Habbaku]

Yes.  What Lincoln was saying was that his war goals were to end the succession...

Can you provide proof that Lincoln was a secret Stuart supporter and wanted to kill Edward VII?

[celedhring]

I'm sure it is for the best but I'm finding this anti-climax quite unsatisfying. Boring, even.

It's far, far too quiet. They must be up to something surely? They declared independence and then... did nothing.

[Josquius]

Quite funny to see on BBC news, the reporter standing in one of Barcelona's main squares.....where it looks like any other day.

[celedhring]

Right now it feels like the separatists just wanted to say they are an independent country, get all drunk celebrating and then go home, without actually caring about the things independent countries are supposed to do in order to actually be independent countries. Had I known I'd have let them do the UDI back in 2014.

I guess it won't be so easy though.

[Duque de Bragança]

It's Daylight Saving Time night, with one hour more to sleep and/or to party so they are having fun I guess before the real business starts on Monday. 

[celedhring]

Madrid hasn't even bothered arresting anyone either. No revolution on the weekend I guess.