The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[Iormlund]

The Catalan Government has been inside the Generalitat "executing" the mandate of independence. I guess they will come out soon with a flurry of measures, including non-acceptance of the intervention. Whatever else they mandate (i.e. seizing of infrastructures) will dictate how much shit hits the fan.

The problem is, of course, that Rajoy sent the elite units of the gendarmerie to critical spots (eg Barcelona's airport). If they try to take it there will be blood.

[Barrister]

Interesting.

Is there some reason you are arguing that we should ignore the wishes of the non-white population when it comes to determining the legitimacy of a secession movement on the basis of the opinions of the people who live in the areas in question?

Is there some reason that you are ignoring what I said about slavery?

The only real moral ground for fighting the south was the argument that slavery was immoral (and that the slaves had no voice in whether or not to secede), but that of course was not the ground that Lincoln originally claimed in the war.

[Iormlund]

Let's be real for a second here. A government without money is no government at all. There is no "parallel government" scenario unless there's actual blood on the streets.

I really don't think it's that easy.

I don't think Madrid can suddenly stop sending money to Catalunya.  They would hardly want schools, hospitals, and police to suddenly close up(I don't know the details of exactly what powers have been devolved to the regional government, but you get the idea).  If they did, you run the major risk that support for independence will go up, not down.

It's not all or nothing. Each item has to be approved and released.

If the regional police, for example, decide not to obey orders, you can cut them off completely, while still paying for doctors and medicines.

[crazy canuck]

Let's be real for a second here. A government without money is no government at all. There is no "parallel government" scenario unless there's actual blood on the streets.

I really don't think it's that easy.

I don't think Madrid can suddenly stop sending money to Catalunya.  They would hardly want schools, hospitals, and police to suddenly close up(I don't know the details of exactly what powers have been devolved to the regional government, but you get the idea).  If they did, you run the major risk that support for independence will go up, not down.

The point is that Madrid is the government with the money to keep all those things running.  Not the separatists.

[Oexmelin]

What a bizarre notion - that actual support from the people involved apparently isn't important when deciding the legitimacy of killing people to secure a political change you cannot achieve via democratic means.

It's not a bizarre notion at all. Rather, it's one well supported by historical precedents. Legitimacy is a political process, and has historically drawn its strength on much more than a numerical assessment of support from opinion polls or, for that matter, the letter of constitutional order.  All sorts of revolutions have established themselves with limited groups of people claiming to speak on behalf of "the Nation" or "The State". Some now enjoy little legitimacy in the eyes of liberal democracies (Cuban, for instance), and some which now enjoy tremendous legitimacy (American, French). Support, in that sense, is thus terribly vague. Not entirely "merely" rhetorical, but not entirely spontaneously "popular" either.

The question which seems to divide people on the forum (and more largely whenever the topic is brought up) is whether current independence movements within liberal democracies can ever be justified. Some seem to answer "no", on the basis that oppression is the only possible legitimate cause; others seem to answer "yes", on the basis that there are such things as national identity which cannot be subsumed under the exercise of democratic rights.

[Drakken]

In any case, CSA secession is irrelevant to this present case. They broke out because they didn't want a Northern President who was an Abolitionist.

As soon as Lincoln was elected, they started to secede, as their congresspeople had promised time and time again during the campaign. Despite this, the South massively voted for Breckinridge against Lincoln. If not a direct referendum on secession, that was pretty much a mandate for disunion which became a foregone conclusion as soon as the first State ratified secession.

[Barrister]

Let's be real for a second here. A government without money is no government at all. There is no "parallel government" scenario unless there's actual blood on the streets.

I really don't think it's that easy.

I don't think Madrid can suddenly stop sending money to Catalunya.  They would hardly want schools, hospitals, and police to suddenly close up(I don't know the details of exactly what powers have been devolved to the regional government, but you get the idea).  If they did, you run the major risk that support for independence will go up, not down.

It's not all or nothing. Each item has to be approved and released.

If the regional police, for example, decide not to obey orders, you can cut them off completely, while still paying for doctors and medicines.

That... doesn't sound right to me.

I mean in Canada taxes are collected by the Federal government through Revenue Canada, even if they are provincial taxes.  The Government of Canada then transfers the money to the Government of Alberta, and it is the GOA that pays my salary.

If Alberta declared a UDI tomorrow, Canada would have no means to pay my salary.  I'm sure they could come up with something over time, but not in the short term.

If Madrid is still writing all of the cheques for Catalan public servants that doesn't sound very much like autonomy.

[Barrister]

Let's be real for a second here. A government without money is no government at all. There is no "parallel government" scenario unless there's actual blood on the streets.

I really don't think it's that easy.

I don't think Madrid can suddenly stop sending money to Catalunya.  They would hardly want schools, hospitals, and police to suddenly close up(I don't know the details of exactly what powers have been devolved to the regional government, but you get the idea).  If they did, you run the major risk that support for independence will go up, not down.

The point is that Madrid is the government with the money to keep all those things running.  Not the separatists.

I understand that.

But if Madrid shuts off the money to Catalunya and essential government services start to close, do you think people will blame the separatists, or Madrid?

[Iormlund]

That... doesn't sound right to me.

I mean in Canada taxes are collected by the Federal government through Revenue Canada, even if they are provincial taxes.  The Government of Canada then transfers the money to the Government of Alberta, and it is the GOA that pays my salary.

If Alberta declared a UDI tomorrow, Canada would have no means to pay my salary.  I'm sure they could come up with something over time, but not in the short term.

If Madrid is still writing all of the cheques for Catalan public servants that doesn't sound very much like autonomy.

Re-read the thread. That's how it worked here until this mess started. Last month the Generalitat decided it was not going to report on their expenses to the central government, and as a result the Government intervened their finances. After triggering art 155 I assume control will be even tighter.

[mongers]

Maybe there's more legitimacy to our Wessex nationalist cause than I guessed. 

[crazy canuck]

Let's be real for a second here. A government without money is no government at all. There is no "parallel government" scenario unless there's actual blood on the streets.

I really don't think it's that easy.

I don't think Madrid can suddenly stop sending money to Catalunya.  They would hardly want schools, hospitals, and police to suddenly close up(I don't know the details of exactly what powers have been devolved to the regional government, but you get the idea).  If they did, you run the major risk that support for independence will go up, not down.

The point is that Madrid is the government with the money to keep all those things running.  Not the separatists.

I understand that.

But if Madrid shuts off the money to Catalunya and essential government services start to close, do you think people will blame the separatists, or Madrid?

I agree.  But why would they do that.  The federal government now rules in Catalunya until new elections are held - which is the point.

The separatists can proclaim a parallel government all they want - but they have no funds.

[Berkut]

Interesting.

Is there some reason you are arguing that we should ignore the wishes of the non-white population when it comes to determining the legitimacy of a secession movement on the basis of the opinions of the people who live in the areas in question?

Is there some reason that you are ignoring what I said about slavery?

The only real moral ground for fighting the south was the argument that slavery was immoral (and that the slaves had no voice in whether or not to secede), but that of course was not the ground that Lincoln originally claimed in the war.

That isn't relevant to your claim that the North had no legitimate grounds to use violence against the south, because the south had popular support.

I don't think there was overwhelming popular support at all (which is the part I am criticizing), unless for some bizarre reason you decide that the opinion of blacks don't count. Can you at least conceded that maybe 3 out 5 could count?

[crazy canuck]

That... doesn't sound right to me.

I mean in Canada taxes are collected by the Federal government through Revenue Canada, even if they are provincial taxes.  The Government of Canada then transfers the money to the Government of Alberta, and it is the GOA that pays my salary.

If Alberta declared a UDI tomorrow, Canada would have no means to pay my salary.  I'm sure they could come up with something over time, but not in the short term.

If Madrid is still writing all of the cheques for Catalan public servants that doesn't sound very much like autonomy.

Re-read the thread. That's how it worked here until this mess started. Last month the Generalitat decided it was not going to report on their expenses to the central government, and as a result the Government intervened their finances. After triggering art 155 I assume control will be even tighter.

Yeah, BB is mixing up the taxing authority Canadian Provinces have with what is happening in Spain.

[Barrister]

Interesting.

Is there some reason you are arguing that we should ignore the wishes of the non-white population when it comes to determining the legitimacy of a secession movement on the basis of the opinions of the people who live in the areas in question?

Is there some reason that you are ignoring what I said about slavery?

The only real moral ground for fighting the south was the argument that slavery was immoral (and that the slaves had no voice in whether or not to secede), but that of course was not the ground that Lincoln originally claimed in the war.

That isn't relevant to your claim that the North had no legitimate grounds to use violence against the south, because the south had popular support.

I don't think there was overwhelming popular support at all (which is the part I am criticizing), unless for some bizarre reason you decide that the opinion of blacks don't count. Can you at least conceded that maybe 3 out 5 could count?

Under the system of slavery as it existed at the time, the opinion of slaves did not count.  They were property, not people.

The Union would have had every legitimacy in the world if it said "it is monstrous to hold human beings as property.  They should be given their full voice, and we're prepared to go to war to see this happen."

But that's not how it started.  Lincoln's casus belli was to "preserve the union", but it seemed pretty clear that the majority of the south the majority of voters supported secession.

Look this isn't meant as some criticism - you guys got there in the end.  But viewing what is going on in Spain through the lens of the Civil War is somewhat flawed, because "preserving the union" isn't, by itself, a very good basis to deny independence to a region.

And I'm pretty sure I never used the word "overwhelming".  If I did, and that is the word you are objecting to, I cheerfully withdraw it.

[Iormlund]

Also, and at the behest of the two biggest Catalonian banks, every major bank in Spain signed an agreement last week vowing not to forward any revenue to a hypothetical Catalonian government.