The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[Valmy]

For somebody who is so anti-EU you sure know very little about it

Back off, bird killer

Birds are dinosaurs. Do you really want your children attacked by dinosaurs?

Think of the children!

[Tonitrus]

If Catalonia exits, Spain could just use the U.S. strategy circa 1861 (before the shooting started)...just ignore it and not recognize it.

If some kind of nascent Catalonian authority starts a fight with the feds, react appropriately to individual cases.

[The Brain]

If Catalonia exits, Spain could just use the U.S. strategy circa 1861 (before the shooting started)...just ignore it and not recognize it.

If some kind of nascent Catalonian authority starts a fight with the feds, react appropriately to individual cases.

If at all possible I think Spain should spare ordinary Catalonians the ordeal of having to serve (and pay taxes to) two masters.

[Iormlund]

So yesterday the Generalitat told the central government it would stop reporting what it does with money.

In response today the government has assumed control of Catalonia's spending.

[Admiral Yi]

So yesterday the Generalitat told the central government it would stop reporting what it does with money.

In response today the government has assumed control of Catalonia's spending.

Is this money handed over by the central government?  Someone upstream said Catalonia has no taxing authority so I'm a little confused where this money comes from.

[celedhring]

So yesterday the Generalitat told the central government it would stop reporting what it does with money.

In response today the government has assumed control of Catalonia's spending.

Is this money handed over by the central government?  Someone upstream said Catalonia has no taxing authority so I'm a little confused where this money comes from.

There's two things at play here.

1) The Central Government collects most taxes (income, VAT, and corporate, all the big ones) and then distributes them to the regions throughout the year, usually in batches.
2) If additionally, a region uses credit facilities from the central government (which can borrow at a much better rate) they have to get their spending approved by the central government, and as an extreme measure the central government can step in and seize control of the entire budget. That's what they are doing right now.

[Valmy]

With that being the case I wonder exactly what the Catalan ultra-nationalists' plan is? Surely they had to have figured the central government would do that. So getting Madrid to do that must be part of their strategy somehow.

[celedhring]

With that being the case I wonder exactly what the Catalan ultra-nationalists' plan is? Surely they had to have figured the central government would do that. So getting Madrid to do that must be part of their strategy somehow.

They already have enacted a law and deployed a Catalan IRS, which would enable them to collect taxes directly. But this totally falls into the "two  masters" thing Brain was talking about, and I'm pretty sure most people would keep paying taxes to Spain just to be safe.

[Valmy]

With that being the case I wonder exactly what the Catalan ultra-nationalists' plan is? Surely they had to have figured the central government would do that. So getting Madrid to do that must be part of their strategy somehow.

They already have enacted a law and deployed a Catalan IRS, which would enable them to collect taxes directly. But this totally falls into the "two  masters" thing Brain was talking about, and I'm pretty sure most people would keep paying taxes to Spain just to be safe.

I figured. Though when the first thing you do in your independence revolution is deploy tax collectors you might have a hard time building a large coalition of supporters.

[Oexmelin]

I figured. Though when the first thing you do in your independence revolution is deploy tax collectors you might have a hard time building a large coalition of supporters.

It worked for Americans.

[Valmy]

I figured. Though when the first thing you do in your independence revolution is deploy tax collectors you might have a hard time building a large coalition of supporters.

It worked for Americans.

We had been collecting taxes for decades because the British forgot they had American colonies for about 100 years while they fought civil wars. It was the British who deployed the extra tax collectors.

[The Minsky Moment]

So yesterday the Generalitat told the central government it would stop reporting what it does with money.

How could that possibly work?  Aren't they obligated to make their records available to the public?

[celedhring]

With that being the case I wonder exactly what the Catalan ultra-nationalists' plan is? Surely they had to have figured the central government would do that. So getting Madrid to do that must be part of their strategy somehow.

They already have enacted a law and deployed a Catalan IRS, which would enable them to collect taxes directly. But this totally falls into the "two  masters" thing Brain was talking about, and I'm pretty sure most people would keep paying taxes to Spain just to be safe.

I figured. Though when the first thing you do in your independence revolution is deploy tax collectors you might have a hard time building a large coalition of supporters.

To be frank, I think they are aware this is doomed to fail - the forces are too uneven. I think the only plan here is to force Spain to the bargaining table, or make them look bad in the international press (police shutting down political rallies, seizing ballot boxes, etc...) so the rest of the EU forces them to the bargaining table so this goes away (at least that's the nationalists' calculus, I'm not that sure the EU countries are that keen on rewarding secesionists).

There's also a game of chicken component going on, where nobody has backed down in years because it would hurt them politically, and now we're here as a result.

Constitutional reform was needed in Spain before this happened, the problem is that now the well is truly poisoned.

[celedhring]

So yesterday the Generalitat told the central government it would stop reporting what it does with money.

How could that possibly work?  Aren't they obligated to make their records available to the public?

Further explanation: Catalonia is using Spain's credit to finance itself (many other regions do the same). Spain has a much better credit rating than Catalonia so it saves money to the state as a whole. The condition is that the central government has to approve Catalonia's spending. What Catalonia will stop doing is sending the bills to Madrid for approval.

As a counter-measure, Madrid will take over Catalonia's payment processing, which is allowed under the law when a region doesn't honor the agreement.

[viper37]

I figured. Though when the first thing you do in your independence revolution is deploy tax collectors you might have a hard time building a large coalition of supporters.

It worked for Americans.

We had been collecting taxes for decades because the British forgot they had American colonies for about 100 years while they fought civil wars. It was the British who deployed the extra tax collectors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion

The so-called "whiskey tax" was the first tax imposed on a domestic product by the newly formed federal government. It became law in 1791, and was intended to generate revenue for the war debt incurred during the Revolutionary War. The tax applied to all distilled spirits, but American whiskey was by far the country's most popular distilled beverage in the 18th century, so the excise became widely known as a "whiskey tax". Farmers of the western frontier were accustomed to distilling their surplus rye, barley, wheat, corn, or fermented grain mixtures into whiskey. These farmers resisted the tax. In these regions, whiskey often served as a medium of exchange. Many of the resisters were war veterans who believed that they were fighting for the principles of the American Revolution, in particular against taxation without local representation, while the federal government maintained that the taxes were the legal expression of Congressional taxation powers.