The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[Valmy]

So, the anarchist trade union has indeed called for a strike on October 3rd. We're officially back to the 1930s!

Does the anarchist trade union have union rules?

[Tamas]

So, the anarchist trade union has indeed called for a strike on October 3rd. We're officially back to the 1930s!

Does the anarchist trade union have union rules?

They must have law and order!

[Iormlund]

I knew I could count on the CNT guys!

[celedhring]

You can always count on Barcelona's anarchists showing up for the fun since 1909.

Anyhow, latest news is that the Supreme Court of Catalonia has ordered all the police forces to shut down all polling stations this Sunday and confiscate all electoral materials. Separatist organizations are already announcing occupations to "protect" the stations. It's gonna be a blast.

[Valmy]

You can always count on Barcelona's anarchists showing up for the fun since 1909.

Anyhow, latest news is that the Supreme Court of Catalonia has ordered all the police forces to shut down all polling stations this Sunday and confiscate all electoral materials. Separatist organizations are already announcing occupations to "protect" the stations. It's gonna be a blast.

So...what do you do in Spain instead of pop popcorn? Mix up some Sangria? Make some Paella?

Sounds like a good day to stay home.

[Iormlund]

I'm almost sad that I won't be there this Sunday.

[viper37]

You can always count on Barcelona's anarchists showing up for the fun since 1909.

Anyhow, latest news is that the Supreme Court of Catalonia has ordered all the police forces to shut down all polling stations this Sunday and confiscate all electoral materials. Separatist organizations are already announcing occupations to "protect" the stations. It's gonna be a blast.

the government should simply have allowed the referendum.  Do it the British way, for once, they got something really right.
Define the mandates, the conditions, the audit of the process by neutral observers, allow campaigning by Spain to preserve the Union, allow campaigning by the Seperatists to make their case, respect the electoral rules, don't cheat, let it play.  If Russians are behind this, expose them publicly before it even starts, and everytime there is such an act.  Fight the fake news, answer with facts, don't do scaremongering, that tends to push people the other way.  If corruption is involved from the administration, then these are the laws must strive to apply, not some sillyness about forbidding the expression of democracy.

Maybe the seperatists would have gotten 40% of the vote.  Maybe 48%.  By what you tells us, it seems unlikely it would have won.

Maybe this entire situation could even have been avoided by public&transparent negotiations on decentralization of the Federal States toward the regions before there is even a referendum.

Stephen Harper fought against the seperatists the good way: he ignored them, he didn't respond to any attemps by Marois to provoke anger on the Feds side.  And it worked.  18 months later, the dumb bitch harakiried herself and the seperatist movement is at an all time low, not even sure to make it to 2nd place in next year elections.

Now, I fear Spain has just given credence to the seperatist cause and this story is far from over. It may sleep for a while, but it will come back.

[Iormlund]

They are not allowed to do that even if they wanted to.

The Constitution is very clear. And to change it you need a 2/3s majority; dissolving Parliament; calling elections; getting another 2/3s majority and a referendum in the whole country.

[Drakken]

You can always count on Barcelona's anarchists showing up for the fun since 1909.

Anyhow, latest news is that the Supreme Court of Catalonia has ordered all the police forces to shut down all polling stations this Sunday and confiscate all electoral materials. Separatist organizations are already announcing occupations to "protect" the stations. It's gonna be a blast.

the government should simply have allowed the referendum.  Do it the British way, for once, they got something really right.
Define the mandates, the conditions, the audit of the process by neutral observers, allow campaigning by Spain to preserve the Union, allow campaigning by the Seperatists to make their case, respect the electoral rules, don't cheat, let it play.  If Russians are behind this, expose them publicly before it even starts, and everytime there is such an act.  Fight the fake news, answer with facts, don't do scaremongering, that tends to push people the other way.  If corruption is involved from the administration, then these are the laws must strive to apply, not some sillyness about forbidding the expression of democracy.

Maybe the seperatists would have gotten 40% of the vote.  Maybe 48%.  By what you tells us, it seems unlikely it would have won.

Maybe this entire situation could even have been avoided by public&transparent negotiations on decentralization of the Federal States toward the regions before there is even a referendum.

Stephen Harper fought against the seperatists the good way: he ignored them, he didn't respond to any attemps by Marois to provoke anger on the Feds side.  And it worked.  18 months later, the dumb bitch harakiried herself and the seperatist movement is at an all time low, not even sure to make it to 2nd place in next year elections.

Now, I fear Spain has just given credence to the seperatist cause and this story is far from over. It may sleep for a while, but it will come back.

This ain't Canada, Viper. Allowing the referendum to happen would have been unconstitutional AND a grossly dangerous slippery slope. What's stopping the Basque Country to ask for their own referendum next?

This sort of referendum for secession is forbidden by the Spanish Constitution. Kingdom of Spain is one and indivisible and there are no lawful processes to break it down.

[Barrister]

They are not allowed to do that even if they wanted to.

The Constitution is very clear. And to change it you need a 2/3s majority; dissolving Parliament; calling elections; getting another 2/3s majority and a referendum in the whole country.

So you have it as a consultative referendum.

[celedhring]

That seems a bit weird though. If independence wins we'd have to go through the same process of Constitutional reform, since independence would still be illegal. And what if the reform is then rejected?

[grumbler]

Canadians sure seem crap on constitutionality.  The best way for the Spanish government to avoid an unconstitutional regional vote on succession cannot be to conduct an unconstitutional regional vote on succession of its own, even using the fig leaf that it is just "consultative."  It would be a disaster if succession lost the vote, and catastrophe if it won.

[viper37]

You can always count on Barcelona's anarchists showing up for the fun since 1909.

Anyhow, latest news is that the Supreme Court of Catalonia has ordered all the police forces to shut down all polling stations this Sunday and confiscate all electoral materials. Separatist organizations are already announcing occupations to "protect" the stations. It's gonna be a blast.

the government should simply have allowed the referendum.  Do it the British way, for once, they got something really right.
Define the mandates, the conditions, the audit of the process by neutral observers, allow campaigning by Spain to preserve the Union, allow campaigning by the Seperatists to make their case, respect the electoral rules, don't cheat, let it play.  If Russians are behind this, expose them publicly before it even starts, and everytime there is such an act.  Fight the fake news, answer with facts, don't do scaremongering, that tends to push people the other way.  If corruption is involved from the administration, then these are the laws must strive to apply, not some sillyness about forbidding the expression of democracy.

Maybe the seperatists would have gotten 40% of the vote.  Maybe 48%.  By what you tells us, it seems unlikely it would have won.

Maybe this entire situation could even have been avoided by public&transparent negotiations on decentralization of the Federal States toward the regions before there is even a referendum.

Stephen Harper fought against the seperatists the good way: he ignored them, he didn't respond to any attemps by Marois to provoke anger on the Feds side.  And it worked.  18 months later, the dumb bitch harakiried herself and the seperatist movement is at an all time low, not even sure to make it to 2nd place in next year elections.

Now, I fear Spain has just given credence to the seperatist cause and this story is far from over. It may sleep for a while, but it will come back.

This ain't Canada, Viper. Allowing the referendum to happen would have been unconstitutional AND a grossly dangerous slippery slope. What's stopping the Basque Country to ask for their own referendum next?

This sort of referendum for secession is forbidden by the Spanish Constitution. Kingdom of Spain is one and indivisible and there are no lawful processes to break it down.

If all that's keeping these people in line is the threat of force, the power of the army, than there is something really fucked up in Spain.

When a nation overwhelmingly feels it wants to leave, it's because there's something wrong.  Find it, fix it, end of problem.

[Gups]

That seems a bit weird though. If independence wins we'd have to go through the same process of Constitutional reform, since independence would still be illegal. And what if the reform is then rejected?

To be clear - is the referendum banned by the constitution? Because it appears that the Spanish Govt is at the moment seeking to prevent the referendum rather than the separation.

If independence wins, it might (depending on the margin) inform the reform process.

If it loses then at least you have dealt with the issue for a decade or two.

[celedhring]

That seems a bit weird though. If independence wins we'd have to go through the same process of Constitutional reform, since independence would still be illegal. And what if the reform is then rejected?

To be clear - is the referendum banned by the constitution? Because it appears that the Spanish Govt is at the moment seeking to prevent the referendum rather than the separation.

If independence wins, it might (depending on the margin) inform the reform process.

If it loses then at least you have dealt with the issue for a decade or two.

The referendum is binding. It's not a Puerto Rico "we'll vote and then ask the US Congress to implement the result" deal. It's seeking a mandate to act against the Constitution. Hence, it's intrinsically unconstitutional.

A consultative referendum seems pointless. The separatists would never accept it anyway, the whole point of their argument is Catalonia's alleged right of self-determination, which doesn't apply if then you have to ask the rest of Spain to agree to implement the result (and it would be rejected by Spanish voters).

Honestly though, I just don't see a way for reconciliation and stability right now. It's either independence or a low-key version of The Troubles. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic, but I see the nationalist frenzy in a large swathe of my compatriots and this isn't going away tomorrow. We're deeply divided and this won't heal anytime soon.

And if Catalonia goes, the domino effect will make Spain crumble, make no mistake about it. The most prosperous and peaceful period of freedom in Spanish history, gone. We're fucking cursed.

Yes, I've gone full Tim.