Globalisation

[Malthus]

It isn't bad, though, as a starting point for other things.

Like law school?

Sure. Among other things.

Being able to analyze and understand messy facts about humans is valuable for a lot of professions dealing with, well, humans. 

[Berkut]

I think you've completely missed the point Oex and PDH have been making.

Someone is certainly missing some point somewhere.

The irony is rich in this discussion.  I don't think you'll get very far in getting them to re-examine their "known truths," but it is fun to watch you try.  It's almost like I am in the very classrooms they describe.

Whats interesting is that they are talking about a particular stereotype - the annoying freshman who thinks they know ever so much about a subject they actually know very little about, but is quite convinced of their expertise.

Those people do exist. Lord knows I've had to deal with them.

But they are not new, they are not different, there are no more of them now then there ever was, and honestly, I think it is part of the job of a teacher to know how to

A) Deal with them in the classroom so as to not distract from the rest of the class, and
B) Try to channel their interest and enthusiasm in a constructive manner so that in the act of making sure to handle A, you don't destroy their interest.

And there is another stereotype that exists, and that is, IMO, a hell of a lot more damaging than individual students. The full of themselves professor who is pissed off they have had to lower themselves to teaching a bunch of damn freshman some intro course that is surely not worth their time and beneath their lofty status in the field. And they sure as hell aren't putting up with some punk 18 year old who thinks they know anything about anything. And that is how this comes across to me.

And the annoying freshman? A good teacher can handle them pretty easily, and they are one person who have little power to screw anyone else up if said instructor knows how to handle them.

The self important professor? There is not much that can be done about that guy once he stands up and starts teaching, and they are going to have a negative impact on the experience of the entire classroom.

In sum, my response to bitches about students who think they know more than they do is...."So what? That comes with teaching. You might as well complain about chalk dust or having to have office hours." Managing the classroom is your job.

[crazy canuck]

Well, at least you've put to rest the idea that the problem is elitist whining about the purity of interest.

I guess we can go back to bitching about how much better the world would be without "wrong" fiction and Osprey books cluttering the minds of the peasants and making them interested in topics that should be reserved for those who already have embraced the particular world views of their instructors?

I've been to college as well, and taught as well. Of course, I taught useless stuff like computer science, where we never, ever had to spend time addressing the fact that the actual state of the science might not align with what intro students expect (especially self taught ones, lord knows THAT never happened), or are already convinced is THE TRUTH. So I guess I was just fortunate to find that doing so really wasn't all that hard, and managing students and their pre-conceived notions was simply a skill I was expected to either have, or at least learn as a matter of course. Certainly nothing herculean or in the top twenty things to find annoying about teaching 18 year old undergrads.

Personally, I don't find it all that debatable that things that spark the interest of people who otherwise might not even be exposed to a field are pretty much great - full stop.

I have taught classes similar to the type PDH is talking about where students come into class with very strong ideas about what the law is or should be (kind of like when Grumbler tells us that drunk girls should somehow be accountable when they get raped).  Debate and speculation about future trends in the law is good, but first the students need to know what the law is and how we got to where we are now.   If they don't understand that then it is very hard to have a reasoned discussion about what might happen next.  The problem is some student's don't let things like reading actual cases get in the way of their preconceived ideas of what the law is or should be and don't engage well in discussions about what the case law actually is.  That sort of dynamic may not happen much in a coding class and that is perhaps why you are having trouble understanding the point PDH and Oex are making.

[crazy canuck]

I think you've completely missed the point Oex and PDH have been making.

Someone is certainly missing some point somewhere.

The irony is rich in this discussion.  I don't think you'll get very far in getting them to re-examine their "known truths," but it is fun to watch you try.  It's almost like I am in the very classrooms they describe.

Whats interesting is that they are talking about a particular stereotype - the annoying freshman who thinks they know ever so much about a subject they actually know very little about, but is quite convinced of their expertise.

Those people do exist. Lord knows I've had to deal with them.

But they are not new, they are not different, there are no more of them now then there ever was, and honestly, I think it is part of the job of a teacher to know how to

A) Deal with them in the classroom so as to not distract from the rest of the class, and
B) Try to channel their interest and enthusiasm in a constructive manner so that in the act of making sure to handle A, you don't destroy their interest.

And there is another stereotype that exists, and that is, IMO, a hell of a lot more damaging than individual students. The full of themselves professor who is pissed off they have had to lower themselves to teaching a bunch of damn freshman some intro course that is surely not worth their time and beneath their lofty status in the field. And they sure as hell aren't putting up with some punk 18 year old who thinks they know anything about anything. And that is how this comes across to me.

And the annoying freshman? A good teacher can handle them pretty easily, and they are one person who have little power to screw anyone else up if said instructor knows how to handle them.

The self important professor? There is not much that can be done about that guy once he stands up and starts teaching, and they are going to have a negative impact on the experience of the entire classroom.

In sum, my response to bitches about students who think they know more than they do is...."So what? That comes with teaching. You might as well complain about chalk dust or having to have office hours." Managing the classroom is your job.

Wow, are you really trying to suggest PDH just wasn't up to it

[Tamas]

Well, at least you've put to rest the idea that the problem is elitist whining about the purity of interest.

I guess we can go back to bitching about how much better the world would be without "wrong" fiction and Osprey books cluttering the minds of the peasants and making them interested in topics that should be reserved for those who already have embraced the particular world views of their instructors?

I've been to college as well, and taught as well. Of course, I taught useless stuff like computer science, where we never, ever had to spend time addressing the fact that the actual state of the science might not align with what intro students expect (especially self taught ones, lord knows THAT never happened), or are already convinced is THE TRUTH. So I guess I was just fortunate to find that doing so really wasn't all that hard, and managing students and their pre-conceived notions was simply a skill I was expected to either have, or at least learn as a matter of course. Certainly nothing herculean or in the top twenty things to find annoying about teaching 18 year old undergrads.

Personally, I don't find it all that debatable that things that spark the interest of people who otherwise might not even be exposed to a field are pretty much great - full stop.

I have taught classes similar to the type PDH is talking about where students come into class with very strong ideas about what the law is or should be (kind of like when Grumbler tells us that drunk girls should somehow be accountable when they get raped).  Debate and speculation about future trends in the law is good, but first the students need to know what the law is and how we got to where we are now.   If they don't understand that then it is very hard to have a reasoned discussion about what might happen next.  The problem is some student's don't let things like reading actual cases get in the way of their preconceived ideas of what the law is or should be and don't engage well in discussions about what the case law actually is.  That sort of dynamic may not happen much in a coding class and that is perhaps why you are having trouble understanding the point PDH and Oex are making.

You need to stop these feeble attempts of disproving Berkut's preconceptions with your relevant personal experiences.

[CountDeMoney]

Students ill-prepared for a small seminar or colloquium--like the psychology major jumping into an advanced IR Theory course with no relevant coursework background--can be a terrible distraction and a drag on the learning environment for both instructor and all students involved, but Berkut is always right when he knows what he's talking about, so fuck all you miserable academia cunts. 
You keep trafficking in the truth, B.  Don't let these ivory tower fucks get one over you.  Ignorant ass educators.

[Oexmelin]

Clearly, Berkut's enthusiasm for pedagogy needs to be nurtured, and harnessed: look how productive this conversation is! Amazing outcome: PDH is incompetent, and I am a snooty ivory tower elitist.

[viper37]

The full of themselves professor who is pissed off they have had to lower themselves to teaching a bunch of damn freshman some intro course that is surely not worth their time and beneath their lofty status in the field. And they sure as hell aren't putting up with some punk 18 year old who thinks they know anything about anything.

it is true, but beside the subject of this discussion.

And that is how this comes across to me.

And you asummed wrongly, clearly.

[Barrister]

Clearly, Berkut's enthusiasm for pedagogy needs to be nurtured, and harnessed: look how productive this conversation is! Amazing outcome: PDH is incompetent, and I am a snooty ivory tower elitist.

Oex, love ya man, but you are a snooty ivory tower elitist.

[Jacob]

Clearly, Berkut's enthusiasm for pedagogy needs to be nurtured, and harnessed: look how productive this conversation is! Amazing outcome: PDH is incompetent, and I am a snooty ivory tower elitist.

Oex, love ya man, but you are a snooty ivory tower elitist.

Only to rubes like you who resent academics on principle.

[HVC]

Clearly, Berkut's enthusiasm for pedagogy needs to be nurtured, and harnessed: look how productive this conversation is! Amazing outcome: PDH is incompetent, and I am a snooty ivory tower elitist.

Oex, love ya man, but you are a snooty ivory tower elitist.

He's not elitist, he's French (-Canadian)

[Barrister]

Clearly, Berkut's enthusiasm for pedagogy needs to be nurtured, and harnessed: look how productive this conversation is! Amazing outcome: PDH is incompetent, and I am a snooty ivory tower elitist.

Oex, love ya man, but you are a snooty ivory tower elitist.

Only to rubes like you who resent academics on principle.

[Valmy]

That was a pretty rude thing to say in that context BB. I know that was not your intention.

[CountDeMoney]

BB's gonna take it out on the locals.  Warrants for everybody!

[grumbler]

...kind of like when Grumbler tells us that drunk girls should somehow be accountable when they get raped... 

Yep.  Feel like I'm right back in the classroom dealing with the kid who won't read the assignment because reading makes his head hurt, so he just decides for himself what he wants the words to mean.  Thanks for the flashback.