Operation Enduring Nuremberg: The Trump Diaspora begins...con carne!

[Jacob]

Maybe they'd have to pay a bit more to get non-immigrants to do the work, and that would cause some consumer price increases, but it would also put more money in consumer's hands, so it wouldn't be a particularly negative outcome IMO.

This has been proven to not be the case, I'm pretty sure. Non-Americans in general do not take those jobs even at a premium - and even when they do, they tend to be not very good at them.

It turns out that harvesting is skilled labour - at least if you want to do it efficiently - and it's a skill that no longer is extant in the American labour force.

For the harvesting to be done locally in the US you need to train tens of thousands of American workers in the relevant skills. It's doable, of course, but it's more than "just paying a bit more".

... at least that's what I've read on the subject regarding the use of non-immigrant labour for agricultural work. It seems Britain is facing a similar situation with the apparent upcoming exclusion of East European farm labour.

[dps]

Maybe they'd have to pay a bit more to get non-immigrants to do the work, and that would cause some consumer price increases, but it would also put more money in consumer's hands, so it wouldn't be a particularly negative outcome IMO.

This has been proven to not be the case, I'm pretty sure. Non-Americans in general do not take those jobs even at a premium

Sounds like less of an argument for immigration reform, and more of an argument for giving many of my countrymen a good, swift kick in the butt.

[Ed Anger]

He said me

[Jacob]

Maybe they'd have to pay a bit more to get non-immigrants to do the work, and that would cause some consumer price increases, but it would also put more money in consumer's hands, so it wouldn't be a particularly negative outcome IMO.

This has been proven to not be the case, I'm pretty sure. Non-Americans in general do not take those jobs even at a premium

Sounds like less of an argument for immigration reform, and more of an argument for giving many of my countrymen a good, swift kick in the butt.

Why would they take jobs they can't do?

A good swift kick in the butt will not teach them the required skills anymore than a good swift kick in the butt will teach them how to write SQL or perform root canals or work in an oil field.

Harvesting with any kind of efficiency is skilled labour. Your countrymen do not have the relevant skill. Kick them in the butt all you want, but if you want them to harvest crops they'll need to learn the relevant skills.

[PDH]

The problem with harvesting jobs seems to be that the cost level to induce non-migrant workers to do it is prohibitive.  As Jacob said, the skill set required and the expertise needed to do the work efficiently and quickly is missing, and the jobs themselves are less than desirable to say the least. So there is the dual problem of enticing workers to do it and getting worker who can do it.

Even for those non migrants who want to work, it is far easier to work retail, to add fries to that, or even just mop out bathroom stalls than it is to pick strawberries.

[Admiral Yi]

This has been proven to not be the case, I'm pretty sure. Non-Americans in general do not take those jobs even at a premium - and even when they do, they tend to be not very good at them.

It turns out that harvesting is skilled labour - at least if you want to do it efficiently - and it's a skill that no longer is extant in the American labour force.

For the harvesting to be done locally in the US you need to train tens of thousands of American workers in the relevant skills. It's doable, of course, but it's more than "just paying a bit more".

... at least that's what I've read on the subject regarding the use of non-immigrant labour for agricultural work. It seems Britain is facing a similar situation with the apparent upcoming exclusion of East European farm labour.

I probably read the same article you did about peach pickers in Georgia.  But that doesn't mean there is not *some* wage at which sufficient labor would present itself to clear the market, or that given enough time that labor would not develop the skill needed to pick fruit (though from my memory it was more an issue of stamina and willingess rather than skill per se).

[Ed Anger]

Americans will pick fruit, as long as you charge them 25 bucks to pick their own.

Suckers.

[PDH]

I don't argue that there is some wage that would allow the harvesting to happen, I just don't want to pay 45 dollars for a salad.

[LaCroix]

afrikaners come to north dakota every year to harvest beets. forget about H-2B visas, just look at H-2A visas.

There is an annual cap of 66,000 visas available for H-2B workers. There is no annual cap on visas for H-2A workers.

if some dirt farmer in north dakota can afford afrikaners, then sure as shit the rest of the farmers across the country can scrounge up a few extra dollars to pay for H-2A workers, if americans won't do the job.

[Jacob]

if some dirt farmer in north dakota can afford afrikaners, then sure as shit the rest of the farmers across the country can scrounge up a few extra dollars to pay for H-2A workers, if americans won't do the job.

That seems reasonable on the face of it.

[LaCroix]

at the end of the day, at least half if not more of the country just doesn't care about illegal immigrants. this isn't really a moral issue here, because their decision was risk vs. reward, and they've known about the risk their entire lives. also, it's not hispanics vs. white people. that's another formulation of the "trump is a racist and so is everyone who voted for him" argument that pisses off moderates and certainly doesn't make friends with key voting blocs. saying it's hispanics v. white people is a kneejerk reaction derived from a lack of empathy in why the other side believes the way it does.

the better argument is looking at economics and figuring out ways to show how illegal immigrants benefit the country in a material way.

[Admiral Yi]

Another job that would go begging is bartenders at Irish bars.

I think I read somewhere that the second highest nationality among illegals is Irish.

[grumbler]

That wouldn't be the case if we'd always enforced immigration laws strictly.  And if we'd enforced the laws all along, the problem of illegal aliens who have children who are US citizens wouldn't be an issue, either.

And FWIW, I never have and still don't buy the idea that deporting large numbers of illegal aliens would wreck the economies of any states.  Might wreck a few employers, but that's what they get for hiring illegal aliens anyway.

Keep in mind that I don't agree with our current immigration laws (if it were up to me, we'd let in almost anyone who wanted to live here), but I don't think that the existing laws are fundamentally unjust, but simply aren't good policy.  And if we're not going to change the laws, yeah, then they should be enforced.

Yeah, and if we'd just enforced the laws against murder we wouldn't have murders, and iif we enforced the laws against drug pushers we wouldn't have any illegal drug.

NOT.

That's not how law enforcement works.  It isn't a matter of just "enforcing laws."  It never has been, except on bumper stickers.

[LaCroix]

if our law enforcement, including prosecution, was effective at only 50% of what it's currently at, you'd see murders increase. just like you see more drug use in states in which it's barely prosecuted.

I don't think dps was saying no illegal immigration would occur. I think he was saying illegal immigrants would be less likely to hop over, which is true.

[CountDeMoney]

I don't argue that there is some wage that would allow the harvesting to happen, I just don't want to pay 45 dollars for a salad.

Well get used to that shit.  Fruits and vegetables are just one sector; wait until you have to pay more for chicken and meat products.  And never mind the construction market blowing up.