Operation Enduring Nuremberg: The Trump Diaspora begins...con carne!

[derspiess]

Especially when the reality is that you are a such a big supporter of the law because it targets groups you hate.

What groups do I hate, Berkut?

[Valmy]

Spicey hates University of Marshall grads and Democratic voters.

[derspiess]

Heaven forbid we enforce existing laws.

Are you trolling or is that an accurate description of your reaction to a seeming run-up to mass deportations?

Well I did state it that way to get a reaction.  But I do believe we should enforce immigration laws more than we have been.  Also believe we should increase the number of H-2B visas.

Honestly don't know what to expect with the new policy.  My gut says it will fall short of "mass deportations" that some Trumpistas would like to see, yet still be enough to anger the open border types.

[Solmyr]

So basically, Trump will piss off everyone.

[Valmy]

Well I did state it that way to get a reaction.  But I do believe we should enforce immigration laws more than we have been.  Also believe we should increase the number of H-2B visas.

Honestly don't know what to expect with the new policy.  My gut says it will fall short of "mass deportations" that some Trumpistas would like to see, yet still be enough to anger the open border types.

I mostly agree. I think we should have immigration laws we can practically enforce. I think we should issue visas and greencards in a manner consistent with our economic needs.

And like you I suspect this latest effort will fail miserably.

[Berkut]

Especially when the reality is that you are a such a big supporter of the law because it targets groups you hate.

What groups do I hate, Berkut?

Rapists and criminals, I am sure.

Some of them, probably, are good people.

[Oexmelin]

And like you I suspect this latest effort will fail miserably.

The point of these policies is not to "work". Of course, if the point is to reach the objective, it will fail. But it will empower border patrol, an agency that already has the favor of the Agent Orange, if only because they have been flattering his gigantic vanity, and he, in turn, has promised more delegation of authority to their members. The point is to normalize the arbitrariness of the decision-making process, will allow even more impunity and abuses of authority than is the case, and, in its very failure, will allow more hatred and finger-pointing. This is the kind of rot we are dealing with: assessments in term of success or failure does not apply - simply because it's not the point.

[dps]

Heaven forbid we enforce existing laws.

When they are detached from economic reality and will wreck the economy of numerous states? Yes, indeed.

That wouldn't be the case if we'd always enforced immigration laws strictly.  And if we'd enforced the laws all along, the problem of illegal aliens who have children who are US citizens wouldn't be an issue, either.

And FWIW, I never have and still don't buy the idea that deporting large numbers of illegal aliens would wreck the economies of any states.  Might wreck a few employers, but that's what they get for hiring illegal aliens anyway.

Keep in mind that I don't agree with our current immigration laws (if it were up to me, we'd let in almost anyone who wanted to live here), but I don't think that the existing laws are fundamentally unjust, but simply aren't good policy.  And if we're not going to change the laws, yeah, then they should be enforced.

[sbr]

The good news is that once Mexico starts buying all its corn from South America it won't matter that there is no one to pick American corn and it all starts rotting in the fields.

[Berkut]

Well I did state it that way to get a reaction.  But I do believe we should enforce immigration laws more than we have been.  Also believe we should increase the number of H-2B visas.

Honestly don't know what to expect with the new policy.  My gut says it will fall short of "mass deportations" that some Trumpistas would like to see, yet still be enough to anger the open border types.

I mostly agree. I think we should have immigration laws we can practically enforce. I think we should issue visas and greencards in a manner consistent with our economic needs.

He doesn't agree with that, since that view is not consistent with his cheerleading Trumps latest plan to just engage in indiscriminate deportation.


If you really feel that we should have laws that allow for economically driven immigration, you would not support deporting people who are here because we need people to do the work they are doing, and you would not support a plan that involves indiscriminate tearing apart of families on no basis of economic reality at all, but simply because foreigners are bad regardless.


Finally, if you truly supported such a position, you would not have supported your party when they absolutely refused to even begin to adjust the laws so that they would align with the economic reality.

And like you I suspect this latest effort will fail miserably.

It isn't about failing or succeeding, or rather, the measure of success is not whether they actually purge America of undocumented immigrants.

It is about creating a culture of xenophobia and hate towards immigrants. It is about the standard tactic of deflecting attention from the economic reality in favor of this fake reality where you have this handy group of second class citizens to point the ire of bigots at so they don't notice that the real problems have not a damn thing to do with people from Guatemala willing to pick apples for a fraction of what Americans are willing to pick them. Today in American it is illegal immigrants and refugees. In the past it was Chinese immigrants in American, or Japanese Americans. The Nazis had their Jews. It is all the same thing, just the targets change.

This is classic class warfare - the mega rich convincing the middle class that their stagnating wages are the fault of the ultra poor. It is so completely idiotic that any even slightly intelligent human being who supports this cannot possible be supporting it for the reasons they claim, the fig leaf is too obviously bullshit.

But it is important for the spiceys to have that fig leaf, so they can justify their support for policies of intolerance on the basis of "Just enforce the law!" and "Some of them are good people, but they are mostly rapists and criminals!", or even "The Protocols clearly show..."

[Admiral Yi]

The good news is that once Mexico starts buying all its corn from South America it won't matter that there is no one to pick American corn and it all starts rotting in the fields.

Corn is all harvested by machine.

[Berkut]

Heaven forbid we enforce existing laws.

When they are detached from economic reality and will wreck the economy of numerous states? Yes, indeed.

That wouldn't be the case if we'd always enforced immigration laws strictly.  And if we'd enforced the laws all along, the problem of illegal aliens who have children who are US citizens wouldn't be an issue, either.

And FWIW, I never have and still don't buy the idea that deporting large numbers of illegal aliens would wreck the economies of any states.  Might wreck a few employers, but that's what they get for hiring illegal aliens anyway.

Keep in mind that I don't agree with our current immigration laws (if it were up to me, we'd let in almost anyone who wanted to live here), but I don't think that the existing laws are fundamentally unjust, but simply aren't good policy.  And if we're not going to change the laws, yeah, then they should be enforced.

My only problem with this position is that in a practical sense, as it is practiced by the Republicans, it is a complete lie.

If they actually held this position, they would be in favor of economically driven and humane immigration reform so we can get our laws aligned with the economic reality that drove millions of people to come to the United States to do shitty jobs Americans don't want.

But nope - they categorically refused to even consider any reform at all for the last several years, and now that they have the power, are they going to reform anything? Nope - just round them up and ship them out because that is what sells to bigots. It makes no sense on any level OTHER THAN it appeals to bigots.

[Jacob]

The point of these policies is not to "work". Of course, if the point is to reach the objective, it will fail. But it will empower border patrol, an agency that already has the favor of the Agent Orange, if only because they have been flattering his gigantic vanity, and he, in turn, has promised more delegation of authority to their members. The point is to normalize the arbitrariness of the decision-making process, will allow even more impunity and abuses of authority than is the case, and, in its very failure, will allow more hatred and finger-pointing. This is the kind of rot we are dealing with: assessments in term of success or failure does not apply - simply because it's not the point.

Yeah, to me this seems primarily about identifying a group (well two - Hispanic people and Muslims) as "the enemy within" and be seen to hurt them - efficacy and humanity are not part of the calculation at all at this point.

[dps]

If they actually held this position, they would be in favor of economically driven and humane immigration reform so we can get our laws aligned with the economic reality that drove millions of people to come to the United States to do shitty jobs Americans don't want.

I don't think that "economically driven and humane immigration reform" really describes my position, which is more, "let 'em all in, except keep out the terrorists, professional criminals, and those with serious contagious diseases".  It's not about the economics, at least not any perceived direct economic impact.  We don't need Mexicans or other immigrants to harvest crops.  Yeah, somebody's gotta do it, and it's a job that few people actually like, but if there weren't illegal aliens (or legal immigrants, for that matter) to do they job, the farmers would find someone to do it.  Maybe they'd have to pay a bit more to get non-immigrants to do the work, and that would cause some consumer price increases, but it would also put more money in consumer's hands, so it wouldn't be a particularly negative outcome IMO.  The real benefits of immigration are long-term, I think--some of those immigrants (or more likely, their children or grandchildren) might discover a cure for AIDS, or figure out how to make cold fusion work, or invent a better mousetrap.

[derspiess]

Especially when the reality is that you are a such a big supporter of the law because it targets groups you hate.

What groups do I hate, Berkut?

Rapists and criminals, I am sure.

Some of them, probably, are good people.

Don't weasel out of it.  Man up and answer the question.  What groups do I hate?