What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Razgovory]

If that's true, then he has merely stumbled onto the strategy of despots.  Functionally, they are the same.

My response remains the same.

Okay.  I'm not certain what that means in regard to my second statement, but whatever.

[Eddie Teach]

Having the same result as someone else's purposeful strategy is accidental. It doesn't give him purpose.

[Admiral Yi]

Okay.  I'm not certain what that means in regard to my second statement, but whatever.

Yup.  Whatever.

[Razgovory]

Having the same result as someone else's purposeful strategy is accidental. It doesn't give him purpose.

We can rejoice that the subversion of Democracy being committed by a man who, while certainly has contempt for Democracy and is working to erode it, is emulating despots unconsciously rather than consciously.

[Grinning_Colossus]

Yes, it is.

And also, this, by David Frum (a man who has seeded part of what were are now reaping):

"If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy."

I can believe it. There's already a lot of this going on with the panic about 'populism.'

[Valmy]

Yes, it is.

And also, this, by David Frum (a man who has seeded part of what were are now reaping):

"If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy."

I can believe it. There's already a lot of this going on with the panic about 'populism.'

Eh there is nothing really to panic about. It is just a tired road that generally goes the same old places.

[Berkut]

Yes, it is.

And also, this, by David Frum (a man who has seeded part of what were are now reaping):

"If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy."

This is stated as something that may happen.

There is no may happen, it is already happening and has been for some time, at least ten years or more.

[Razgovory]

Yes, it is.

And also, this, by David Frum (a man who has seeded part of what were are now reaping):

"If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy."

I've pretty much lost hope.  A story that's been coming out this week is what I've feared for months.  Trump had phone conversations with a foreign leader last month where he made a "promise".  These conversations so disturbed a guy in the intelligence community he wrote up a whistle blower complaint.  A complaint the  White House is required by law to give to Congress, which of course the White House refuses to do so.  Information about the complaint has been coming out this week and we know it has something to do with Ukraine.  Given what we already know about Trump and Ukraine a very frightening possibility is starting to take shape.  We know Trump has been trying to prevent 250 million dollars worth of anti-tank weapons from going to Ukraine to fight the Russians in the Donbas.  At the same time, we know Trump's lawyer, Rudy Giuliani has been going over to Ukraine to in an attempt to get the Ukrainian government set up a criminal investigation on Joe Biden based on some events that Biden's dead son was cleared on years ago.  Possible Scenario: Trump promises the weapons to Ukraine if they criminally indicted Joe Biden next year.

What hope is there against that sort of behavior?  How you can you have a fair election if the President is bribing foreign nations to attack domestic political opponents.

[Barrister]

Yes, it is.

And also, this, by David Frum (a man who has seeded part of what were are now reaping):

"If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy."

I'm a big Frum fan, and read the book that quote comes from.  I think you're reading the quote wrong.

It's not that "if conservatives become convinced that they will not win", but rather can.  That conservative ideas can get a fair hearing.

His point is that if the culture continues to try and define certain ideals or positions as "beyond the pale", that they can not even be debated or discussed, it's not that people who hold such beliefs are going to go away.  Whether that be a belief is being pro-life, being opposed to immigration (which is what I think specifically Frum was talking about), belief in biologically determined gender, or whatever.

[Valmy]

I mean it seems like they are winning most of the debates currently, far from being rejected by culture. They win many elections often partly based on those very conservative points.

[Barrister]

I mean it seems like they are winning most of the debates currently, far from being rejected by culture. They win many elections often partly based on those very conservative points.

Depends on how you look at it.  A conservative would note that abortion is still legal, they utterly lost the debate on gay marriage, that church attendance is declining, marriage rates are dropping...

[Valmy]

I mean it seems like they are winning most of the debates currently, far from being rejected by culture. They win many elections often partly based on those very conservative points.

Depends on how you look at it.  A conservative would note that abortion is still legal, they utterly lost the debate on gay marriage, that church attendance is declining, marriage rates are dropping...

Ok I can see how using dirty political tricks might do something about the first two issues, though it would be very hard to reverse gay marriage now. But how can they reverse the other two?

[Oexmelin]

I mean it seems like they are winning most of the debates currently, far from being rejected by culture. They win many elections often partly based on those very conservative points.

Depends on how you look at it.  A conservative would note that abortion is still legal, they utterly lost the debate on gay marriage, that church attendance is declining, marriage rates are dropping...

What would be the fair hearing on those issues? How should they be presented in a way that Conservatives understand their ideas are being fairly rejected?

Or, in other words, what form should the debate take for Conservatives to accept defeat? Because what I am seeing right now, is an unholy alliance of conspiracy theories, victimhood complex, and self-righteousness about being the "true" nation.

[Berkut]

I mean it seems like they are winning most of the debates currently, far from being rejected by culture. They win many elections often partly based on those very conservative points.

Depends on how you look at it.  A conservative would note that abortion is still legal, they utterly lost the debate on gay marriage, that church attendance is declining, marriage rates are dropping...

You are creating a distinction without meaning.

If the Conservatives have lost the debate on gay marriage, and they will take that loss as evidence that they never had a chance because the system was unfair, and that system is "democracy" so fuck democracy, then that is identical to just saying "fuck democracy".

What evidence is there that they did not get a "fair hearing" on gay marriage, other than that they lost?

[The Brain]

Yes, it is.

And also, this, by David Frum (a man who has seeded part of what were are now reaping):

"If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy."

I'm a big Frum fan, and read the book that quote comes from.  I think you're reading the quote wrong.

It's not that "if conservatives become convinced that they will not win", but rather can.  That conservative ideas can get a fair hearing.

His point is that if the culture continues to try and define certain ideals or positions as "beyond the pale", that they can not even be debated or discussed, it's not that people who hold such beliefs are going to go away.  Whether that be a belief is being pro-life, being opposed to immigration (which is what I think specifically Frum was talking about), belief in biologically determined gender, or whatever.

Won't many dinosaurs eventually just die off? For instance I think few Americans today are pro-slavery, even though that was once the conservative position.