What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[crazy canuck]

Interesting piece on the re-balancing of American interests post Cold War.  The thesis is that Trump is not a cause but a symptom and former allies of the US need to reconsider their relationship with the US as a result - so its back to the 19th century we go?

It is pretty much what the Nationalists want. But it will never work in today's world.

I hope you are right but I am not so certain the US will not try it anyway.

[Valmy]

Interesting piece on the re-balancing of American interests post Cold War.  The thesis is that Trump is not a cause but a symptom and former allies of the US need to reconsider their relationship with the US as a result - so its back to the 19th century we go?

It is pretty much what the Nationalists want. But it will never work in today's world.

I hope you are right but I am not so certain the US will not try it anyway.

Oh we will...or rather are. I fear it is going to set back much of what we have built over the past decades.

[crazy canuck]

Interesting piece on the re-balancing of American interests post Cold War.  The thesis is that Trump is not a cause but a symptom and former allies of the US need to reconsider their relationship with the US as a result - so its back to the 19th century we go?

It is pretty much what the Nationalists want. But it will never work in today's world.

I hope you are right but I am not so certain the US will not try it anyway.

Oh we will...or rather are.

That is really the point of the video I linked.  Given the fact the Americans seem intent on dismantling the international institutions, treaties and trading relationships they created, there is nothing the rest of us can really do except consider our other options and not rely as much on the US being a reliable trading partner or friend.

I made this observation a while back in response to a question about what harm Trump was doing to people outside the US.  There was doubt expressed that Trump was harming anyone other than his own people.   I would like to think that at least some of the Americans who now support Trump would be concerned about the damage the US is currently doing to the very institutions and relationships the US devoted so much time and money to develop.

[Valmy]

Trump's America is not your friend. You should always deal with our president and our government with suspicion. They want to fuck you over so their supporters can praise them.

[crazy canuck]

Trump's America is not your friend. You should always deal with our president and our government with suspicion. They want to fuck you over so their supporters can praise them.

The point of the video I linked is that it is too simplistic to think Trump is the cause, rather he can be viewed as a symptom of a change in what Americans value after the end of the Cold War.  From that perspective, it is not just Trump that is not our friend but he signals a change that has been coming for some time.

[Valmy]

Trump's America is not your friend. You should always deal with our president and our government with suspicion. They want to fuck you over so their supporters can praise them.

The point of the video I linked is that it is too simplistic to think Trump is the cause, rather he can be viewed as a symptom of a change in what Americans value after the end of the Cold War.  From that perspective, it is not just Trump that is not our friend but he signals a change that has been coming for some time.

I am annoyed a bit too be identified with my opponents, that their values are the true American values, but sure.

[crazy canuck]

Trump's America is not your friend. You should always deal with our president and our government with suspicion. They want to fuck you over so their supporters can praise them.

The point of the video I linked is that it is too simplistic to think Trump is the cause, rather he can be viewed as a symptom of a change in what Americans value after the end of the Cold War.  From that perspective, it is not just Trump that is not our friend but he signals a change that has been coming for some time.

I am annoyed a bit too be identified with my opponents, that their values are the true American values, but sure.

Did you watch the video?  Not sure why you would be offended by longer term trends being identified in your country as being a root cause to what your political leaders are doing.

[Valmy]

Did you watch the video?  Not sure why you would be offended by longer term trends being identified in your country as being a root cause to what your political leaders are doing.

I am not offended. However I do not think these forces are necessarily an America-only thing. All the international institutions and so forth listed have been challenged and hated by left and right wing fringes for decades and they are gaining momentum and not just in the US. I consider myself an opponent of these forces. I understand that in Canada they might not be strong but they are in other areas of the western world. Is 'America First' really different from 'Take Back Control' and other nationalist movements in the rest of the world?

So that was what I was getting at really. I did not mean to pass along the idea I was offended necessarily. Saddened a bit...yes.

And it is not just a Trump thing, there are similar forces over here in the Democratic Party I am worried about. I have been saying this for years. A Bernie Sanders type being elected would be happy with many of the things Trump has done internationally.

[Valmy]

I guess one thing I took from the video was that because of our position of leadership we can expect most of our allies to start to react by adopting similar outlooks. Once the pieces are broken it will take some time to reforge them.

[The Brain]

Seek the world order that was broken. In Washington it dwells.

[Berkut]

Interesting piece on the re-balancing of American interests post Cold War.  The thesis is that Trump is not a cause but a symptom and former allies of the US need to reconsider their relationship with the US as a result - so its back to the 19th century we go?

http://vancouversun.com/news/economy/trump-vs-world-americans-strategy-of-disengagement/wcm/e9ded4dc-05c2-45dd-898b-d724bf2ad257?video_autoplay=true

There is a pretty good argument to be made that if we are looking out the foundations of the change in America's commitment and engagement with the rest of the West, it would be useful for the "rest of the West" too look in the mirror a bit themselves.

Several decades of the "rest of the West" bleating on about the American Empire and how we are a force for evil and destruction, and the world doesn't need America policing it and bombing it and being all around terrible has an impact over time.

I've been saying this for a long time - be careful what you wish for, because you might just get it. Sadly, "getting it" is considerably uglier than even I ever expected.

[Berkut]

Did you watch the video?  Not sure why you would be offended by longer term trends being identified in your country as being a root cause to what your political leaders are doing.

I am not offended. However I do not think these forces are necessarily an America-only thing. All the international institutions and so forth listed have been challenged and hated by left and right wing fringes for decades and they are gaining momentum and not just in the US. I consider myself an opponent of these forces. I understand that in Canada they might not be strong but they are in other areas of the western world. Is 'America First' really different from 'Take Back Control' and other nationalist movements in the rest of the world?

So that was what I was getting at really. I did not mean to pass along the idea I was offended necessarily. Saddened a bit...yes.

And it is not just a Trump thing, there are similar forces over here in the Democratic Party I am worried about. I have been saying this for years. A Bernie Sanders type being elected would be happy with many of the things Trump has done internationally.

Indeed.

It's not like the "fuck NATO and international institutions is some uniquely right wing idea". We've been hearing for a long time about how terrible the US is, and how we are nothing more than modern imperialists intent on raping the poor of the world, and how the world doesn't need the US military out there pushing everyone around.

The at time deafening slamming on the US in any kind of role of global leadership by the left (and the very moderate left at times in Europe) cannot be ignored as having its part to play in convincing enough people in the US to give the rest of the West the middle finger to get Donald Fucking Trump elected.

I don't like how it is has come about, but I've been saying this for a very, very long time. Painting the US as being a force for evil in the world resonates with Americans. And the US has *always* had a very strong isolationists contingent. This has been true, and should be obvious to anyone with a very cursory understanding of American history in the last century.

[crazy canuck]

Did you watch the video?  Not sure why you would be offended by longer term trends being identified in your country as being a root cause to what your political leaders are doing.

I am not offended. However I do not think these forces are necessarily an America-only thing. All the international institutions and so forth listed have been challenged and hated by left and right wing fringes for decades and they are gaining momentum and not just in the US. I consider myself an opponent of these forces. I understand that in Canada they might not be strong but they are in other areas of the western world. Is 'America First' really different from 'Take Back Control' and other nationalist movements in the rest of the world?

So that was what I was getting at really. I did not mean to pass along the idea I was offended necessarily. Saddened a bit...yes.

And it is not just a Trump thing, there are similar forces over here in the Democratic Party I am worried about. I have been saying this for years. A Bernie Sanders type being elected would be happy with many of the things Trump has done internationally.

Ok, I understand better. 

I think the significant difference and the most worrying part of the "America First" movement is that it was the US who created or was the driving force behind the creation of all these institutions.  Without that leadership, where are we? 

[The Brain]

It's important to remember that the US also approved Germany First.

[dps]

FWIW, I have no problems in theory with pissing off some of our foreign friends, partly because I don't think that they've ever really been our friend anyway, more just people who may share some interests with us that we can work together on.  But that doesn't mean we should piss them off just for the sake of doing so (which often seems to be Trump's intent) nor that we should cuddle up to nations hostile to our interests.