What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[garbon]

Those just sound like excuses. Understandable excuses but that's still not really a defense against Yi's claim.

But the US has pulled out of numerous treaties.  And it's not the first time it has slapped tariffs on allies because your industries are non competitive, following your refusal to follow environmental advancements.

Canada has a similar problem with a part of its industry now.  China has surpassed us in many fields because we refused to invest in climate science.

I don't see what any of this has to do with European contributing to its own defense.

[DGuller]

Like I said, backed by threat of threats of ostracism.  No explanations, no understandings, just accept or face punishment.  No wonder why Dguller is afraid to discuss certain topics.  I guess I should follow his lead and just shut up.

It isn't my job to point out the bleeding obvious that when a trans person is clearly expressing distress (and just the general dire atmosphere we are in with Trump) that said moment might not be the time to start questioning whether trans people are really the ones to blame.

Had people on the left not always looked for reasons to not discuss certain topics, over the last decade or so, they might've been better attuned to what is rightly or wrongly in the minds of many people.  Might've even prevented us from living in the Trump atmosphere these days.

[garbon]

Like I said, backed by threat of threats of ostracism.  No explanations, no understandings, just accept or face punishment.  No wonder why Dguller is afraid to discuss certain topics.  I guess I should follow his lead and just shut up.

It isn't my job to point out the bleeding obvious that when a trans person is clearly expressing distress (and just the general dire atmosphere we are in with Trump) that said moment might not be the time to start questioning whether trans people are really the ones to blame.

Had people on the left not always looked for reasons to not discuss certain topics, over the last decade or so, they might've been better attuned to what is rightly or wrongly in the minds of many people.  Might've even prevented us from living in the Trump atmosphere these days.

Probably not. I think is pretty clear that many Americans just want the freedom to be assholes to whomever they feel like abusing.

[DGuller]

Like I said, backed by threat of threats of ostracism.  No explanations, no understandings, just accept or face punishment.  No wonder why Dguller is afraid to discuss certain topics.  I guess I should follow his lead and just shut up.

It isn't my job to point out the bleeding obvious that when a trans person is clearly expressing distress (and just the general dire atmosphere we are in with Trump) that said moment might not be the time to start questioning whether trans people are really the ones to blame.

Had people on the left not always looked for reasons to not discuss certain topics, over the last decade or so, they might've been better attuned to what is rightly or wrongly in the minds of many people.  Might've even prevented us from living in the Trump atmosphere these days.

Probably not. I think is pretty clear that many Americans just want the freedom to be assholes to whomever they feel like abusing.

Like to Raz?

[crazy canuck]

Like I said, backed by threat of threats of ostracism.  No explanations, no understandings, just accept or face punishment.  No wonder why Dguller is afraid to discuss certain topics.  I guess I should follow his lead and just shut up.

It isn't my job to point out the bleeding obvious that when a trans person is clearly expressing distress (and just the general dire atmosphere we are in with Trump) that said moment might not be the time to start questioning whether trans people are really the ones to blame.

Had people on the left not always looked for reasons to not discuss certain topics, over the last decade or so, they might've been better attuned to what is rightly or wrongly in the minds of many people.  Might've even prevented us from living in the Trump atmosphere these days.

Probably not. I think is pretty clear that many Americans just want the freedom to be assholes to whomever they feel like abusing.

So rather than explain to Raz why his opinion is wrong, as JR did in a very thoughtful and lengthy post, it's better just to be an asshole and tell him you don't give a fuck what he thinks?

That may be how you fight a culture war.  I think that that's how you lose a culture war but that's another issue. But it is certainly not how you persuade somebody like Raz that there's a different way of thinking about the issue.

[Jacob]

(and by the way Canada stationed troops in Europe as well.  Only number I can find is 100k over the length of the cold war, so obviously the number at any given time would be a fraction of that).

I visited the Canadian army base in Lahr, Germany as a lad in the 80s. Other than my first exposure to processed cheese ( ), it was pretty cool.

[garbon]

Like I said, backed by threat of threats of ostracism.  No explanations, no understandings, just accept or face punishment.  No wonder why Dguller is afraid to discuss certain topics.  I guess I should follow his lead and just shut up.

It isn't my job to point out the bleeding obvious that when a trans person is clearly expressing distress (and just the general dire atmosphere we are in with Trump) that said moment might not be the time to start questioning whether trans people are really the ones to blame.

Had people on the left not always looked for reasons to not discuss certain topics, over the last decade or so, they might've been better attuned to what is rightly or wrongly in the minds of many people.  Might've even prevented us from living in the Trump atmosphere these days.

Probably not. I think is pretty clear that many Americans just want the freedom to be assholes to whomever they feel like abusing.

So rather than explain to Raz why his opinion is wrong, as JR did in a very thoughtful and lengthy post, it's better just to be an asshole and tell him you don't give a fuck what he thinks?

That may be how you fight a culture war.  I think that that's how you lose a culture war but that's another issue. But it is certainly not how you persuade somebody like Raz that there's a different way of thinking about the issue.

If Raz decides not to attack trans people on this forum, I don't care how that happens. I'm not trying to become his teacher. It is embarrassing that it should be incumbent on others to patiently teach grown adults why they shouldn't be dickish.

Especially here where we already have a) discussed trans issues for so long and on so much depth and b) have already run trans member of our community away.

[garbon]

Like I said, backed by threat of threats of ostracism.  No explanations, no understandings, just accept or face punishment.  No wonder why Dguller is afraid to discuss certain topics.  I guess I should follow his lead and just shut up.

It isn't my job to point out the bleeding obvious that when a trans person is clearly expressing distress (and just the general dire atmosphere we are in with Trump) that said moment might not be the time to start questioning whether trans people are really the ones to blame.

Had people on the left not always looked for reasons to not discuss certain topics, over the last decade or so, they might've been better attuned to what is rightly or wrongly in the minds of many people.  Might've even prevented us from living in the Trump atmosphere these days.

Probably not. I think is pretty clear that many Americans just want the freedom to be assholes to whomever they feel like abusing.

Like to Raz?

Yeah, he started it

[grumbler]

If you looked around hard enough you could probably find someone who that has happened to.

But it kind of begs the question - so what?  Should every trans person be ostracized because something unfortunate happened to one person in their name?

It's like pointing to an islamic terrorist and then collectively blaming all muslims.

1. Raz is making the claim.  The burden of proof is on him.

2.  That's not what "begs the question" means (to get all Languish about language).  Raz's statement about the harm of trans people on employment begs the question "are people losing their jobs over pronouns?"

[Barrister]

If you looked around hard enough you could probably find someone who that has happened to.

But it kind of begs the question - so what?  Should every trans person be ostracized because something unfortunate happened to one person in their name?

It's like pointing to an islamic terrorist and then collectively blaming all muslims.

1. Raz is making the claim.  The burden of proof is on him.

2.  That's not what "begs the question" means (to get all Languish about language).  Raz's statement about the harm of trans people on employment begs the question "are people losing their jobs over pronouns?"

So what?

Even if we could find 100 people fired over their use of pronouns for trans people - does that make it right to be upset at all trans people?

[crazy canuck]

If Raz decides not to attack trans people on this forum, I don't care how that happens. I'm not trying to become his teacher. It is embarrassing that it should be incumbent on others to patiently teach grown adults why they shouldn't be dickish.

Especially here where we already have a) discussed trans issues for so long and on so much depth and b) have already run trans member of our community away.

I could not disagree more. Attaining the age of majority does not somehow imbue a person with instant wisdom and knowledge.  And, you have to agree everyone here - with the exceptions of a very few (Richard, Toni and FunkMunk come to mind) have been complete dicks from to time.  Me especially.

The point I fundamentally disagree with is your objection to engage in dialogue with someone you disagree with.  That is an obligation you have as a member of society.

[crazy canuck]

Yeah, he started it

Weren't you talking about how adults should conduct themselves just before this post 

[Tonitrus]

I could not disagree more. Attaining the age of majority does not somehow imbue a person with instant wisdom and knowledge.  And, you have to agree everyone here - with the exceptions of a very few (Richard, Toni and FunkMunk come to mind) have been complete dicks from to time.  Me especially.

I have failed. 

[crazy canuck]

If you looked around hard enough you could probably find someone who that has happened to.

But it kind of begs the question - so what?  Should every trans person be ostracized because something unfortunate happened to one person in their name?

It's like pointing to an islamic terrorist and then collectively blaming all muslims.

1. Raz is making the claim.  The burden of proof is on him.

2.  That's not what "begs the question" means (to get all Languish about language).  Raz's statement about the harm of trans people on employment begs the question "are people losing their jobs over pronouns?"

So what?

Even if we could find 100 people fired over their use of pronouns for trans people - does that make it right to be upset at all trans people?

Yeah, Grumbler is getting into a detail that has little point. Some might even say a pedantic point 

Truth is there are people who have been fired who refused to use a person's pronouns appropriately.  I am defending a case right now where that happened.  But as JR pointed out, there is a lot more to it than just the refusal to use pronouns - the defence relies on a course of conduct of lack of respect for Trans people within the workplace, and the refusal to use pronouns is just one manifestation of the reason why the employee was terminated.

[crazy canuck]

I could not disagree more. Attaining the age of majority does not somehow imbue a person with instant wisdom and knowledge.  And, you have to agree everyone here - with the exceptions of a very few (Richard, Toni and FunkMunk come to mind) have been complete dicks from to time.  Me especially.

I have failed.