What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Threviel]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Zionism has never been a uniform movement. Its leaders, parties, and ideologies frequently diverged from one another. Compromises and concessions were made in order to achieve a shared cultural and political objective as a result of the growing antisemitism and yearning to return to the "ancestral" country. A variety of types of Zionism have emerged, including political Zionism, liberal Zionism, labor Zionism, revisionist Zionism, cultural Zionism, and religious Zionism. Advocates of Zionism view it as a national liberation movement for the repatriation of an indigenous people (which were subject to persecution and share a national identity through national consciousness), to the homeland of their ancestors as noted in ancient history.[20][21][22] Critics of Zionism view it as a colonialist,[23] racist,[24] or exceptionalist ideology or movement (through settler colonialism).[25][26][27][28][29]

It's in the eye of the beholder.

[DGuller]

I think the historical Zionists that formed Israel were generally pretty secular.  In fact, given their background, I wouldn't be surprised if most them disdained the highly religious Jews.  Just because Judaism is always tied to Jewish people doesn't mean that everything Jews do as a group is religious in nature. 

These days, the Jews that do immigrate to Israel for Zionist reasons in my anecdotal experience do tend to be highly religious, and have highly theological reasons for their migration.

[grumbler]

Eh? I don't think Zionism is theological?

Israel has tons of laws giving Jews special rights and privileges related to their religion.  A Jew newly arrived from overseas, with no previous connections to the country, can get immediate citizenship and all sorts of perks, while a non-Jew that's actually lived in Israel for their whole life gets none of them.

Zionism started as a nationalist movement (and those are bad enough) but has become a theocratic movement that feels destined to fulfill biblical fantasies.

[DGuller]

Eh? I don't think Zionism is theological?

Israel has tons of laws giving Jews special rights and privileges related to their religion.  A Jew newly arrived from overseas, with no previous connections to the country, can get immediate citizenship and all sorts of perks, while a non-Jew that's actually lived in Israel for their whole life gets none of them.

Zionism started as a nationalist movement (and those are bad enough) but has become a theocratic movement that feels destined to fulfill biblical fantasies.

I think it has less to do with Zionism and more to do with gradual religious takeover of Israeli politics.  The religious faction has always been savvy about using their kingmaker status to extract concessions disproportionate to their numbers.  I would argue that what's happening now is the perversion of what historical Zionists intended rather than what they hoped to achieve, and it's also a different reality from what existed when most Jews migrated to Israel.

[Admiral Yi]

DGuller, in addition to the other changes to Israeli society mentioned, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the impact of the immigration of ex Soviet Jews.

[Jacob]

I think it has less to do with Zionism and more to do with gradual religious takeover of Israeli politics.  The religious faction has always been savvy about using their kingmaker status to extract concessions disproportionate to their numbers.  I would argue that what's happening now is the perversion of what historical Zionists intended rather than what they hoped to achieve, and it's also a different reality from what existed when most Jews migrated to Israel.

That matches my understanding.

[DGuller]

DGuller, in addition to the other changes to Israeli society mentioned, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the impact of the immigration of ex Soviet Jews.

It's hard for me to judge their impact, but again anecdotally speaking, Soviet Jews tend to be hard right but also strongly anti-religious.  They're strongly pro-Trump both in the US and in Israel. 

It's just not in the DNA of Jews raised in Soviet Union to truly grasp the danger of authoritarianism.  They can certainly grasp the danger of the wrong kinds of people holding authoritarian power, but they don't take it one step further and appreciate that maybe there is no such thing as the right person holding authoritarian power.

[Admiral Yi]

It's hard for me to judge their impact, but again anecdotally speaking, Soviet Jews tend to be hard right but also strongly anti-religious.  They're strongly pro-Trump both in the US and in Israel. 

It's just not in the DNA of Jews raised in Soviet Union to truly grasp the danger of authoritarianism.  They can certainly grasp the danger of the wrong kinds of people holding authoritarian power, but they don't take it one step further and appreciate that maybe there is no such thing as the right person holding authoritarian power.

What do you think of the idea that life in the USSR, perhaps layered on top of the persecution under the Czars, led to a reinforcement of the tribal mentality?  There is no right and wrong, no good and evil, only my tribe fighting with another tribe for a watering hole?

[The Minsky Moment]

Eh? I don't think Zionism is theological?

A thought experiment, if there was no religious text or tradition describing the conquest and settlement what justification would there be for peoples if the Jewish faith creating the modern state of Israel?

The same basis used by every incipient or actual nationalism that has ever been.  You just invent a tradition.  Zionists have the Book of Judges, the French have Vercingetorix and Asertix comic books.

[DGuller]

What do you think of the idea that life in the USSR, perhaps layered on top of the persecution under the Czars, led to a reinforcement of the tribal mentality?  There is no right and wrong, no good and evil, only my tribe fighting with another tribe for a watering hole?

I don't think it's a uniquely Jewish thing, I think it's more a Soviet thing.  People who grew up in the USSR tend to be cynical like that on a personal level:  you do what you need to do to get yourself into a position where benefits go your way.  What may seem corrupt when other people are doing it is just "not being stupid" when you're doing it.  Idealism doesn't work when no sane person can believe that a system will aim to protect and reward those who play by the rules.

I think the same mindset explains the politics of Soviet Jews.  The reason why authoritarianism and corruption go hand in hand is because it's the same mindset in different contexts.  Instead of putting your faith in a complex system of rules and laws, and doing your part to reinforce them, you put your faith in your connections.  What's good for your connections is good for you, and you hope that in this game where everyone is out for themselves, your team will perform better than other teams.  I think being Jewish has a minor role in this phenomenon, it's not like the non-Jew Soviet citizens who stayed in their Soviet countries were much better at not supporting authoritarianism.

[Sheilbh]

The same basis used by every incipient or actual nationalism that has ever been.  You just invent a tradition.  Zionists have the Book of Judges, the French have Vercingetorix and Asertix comic books.

Yeah, I think the "you are an imagined community, we have primordial roots into the soil" is something that you see on both the Zionist/Israeli and Palestinian side. And on both sides I think it's nonsense.

[HVC]

Eh? I don't think Zionism is theological?

Israel has tons of laws giving Jews special rights and privileges related to their religion.  A Jew newly arrived from overseas, with no previous connections to the country, can get immediate citizenship and all sorts of perks, while a non-Jew that's actually lived in Israel for their whole life gets none of them.

Zionism started as a nationalist movement (and those are bad enough) but has become a theocratic movement that feels destined to fulfill biblical fantasies.

Unless you're a black Jew, then they don't want you.

[Jacob]

Unless you're a black Jew, then they don't want you.

Is that so?

[HVC]

Unless you're a black Jew, then they don't want you.

Is that so?

Discrimination against Ethiopian Jews is pretty well known, I thought. There also a long history with African Hebrews, but that's like half race half religious because they're not seen as "real Jews", and there's animosity both ways.

[HVC]

A briefsummary of the discrimination Ethiopian Jews face

And an excerpt of the part I just learned and was pretty shocking:

Government absorption policies sent many Ethiopian children to boarding schools. Patriarchal family structures began to break down as women went to work and children overtook their illiterate parents, leading to domestic conflict.

Even their Judaism was questioned. Traditional religious leaders, or Kessim, were stripped of authority by state religious bodies. Men were asked to undergo a second, symbolic circumcision.