RIP Jack Chick

[Berkut]

What's fundamentally absurd and baseless about Taoism or Buddhism?

The mythological parts are clearly nonsense, but the more philosophical parts contains some kernels of interest. Not all beliefs are equally absurd -- Mormonism is orders of magnitude sillier.

In Buddhism of the original, Theravada kind, the "mythology" is that the Buddha left his prosperous life after witnessing human suffering and death, wandered around listening to various teachers of his era, decided they did not know how to avoid suffering, and sat under a tree until he worked out his own philosophy, which he then taught to others until he died.

In original Taoism, there appears to be no mythology at all. Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu were authors of the key Taoist texts, but we know practically nothing about either.

Both eventually gave their names to religions crowded with the usual gods, demons, angels ("bodhisattvas"), heavens, hells, etc. But that stuff has basically nothing to do with the original religions.

The Buddha's own alleged approach to such stuff was pretty simple - when pressed as to the existence of gods, demons, etc., he professed a sort of profound agnosticism: they may well exist, or not; but if they do, they don't know how to avoid suffering any more than people do! 

See, what you just described there is, IMO, not religion at all, but rather philosophy, and philosophy of the best kind...

[Hamilcar]

You know, Jack Chick felt his views were completely rational as well, and could source just about anything he said to an appropriate Bible quotation.

The real similarity between the two of you is your absolute certainty in the correctness of your world view, and the inability give any credit or sympathy to the views of others.

Oh, stop it with the postmodern drivel. There is zero similarity between Chick's views and mine. Why? My world view is subject to revision given new and better data. Error correction if you will. Chick just has a book he thinks was written by the Creator of the Universe.

But if that book WAS so written, then his absolute faith in it is perfectly rational.

That is the entire problem with beebs insistence that we should just treat this all the same. It is NOT all the same.

If I truly believed that an apostate might possibly damn my child to an eternity of torment, there is no possible action I can take that is rationally beyond the pale to fight that danger. You cannot start with a irrational premise that results in infinite possible harm and NOT end up with radicalism.

Jack Chick's entire world view and actions make perfect, rational sense given one basic irrational assumption and the beliefs that follow from it.

You are completely correct. Once you accept a religion's claims, the subsequent actions make perfect sense. I am sure Jack Chick thought he was right, just as the jihadi steering an airplane into a building full of infidels feels nothing but joy at doing his duty and earning his place in paradise.

[Hamilcar]

What's fundamentally absurd and baseless about Taoism or Buddhism?

The mythological parts are clearly nonsense, but the more philosophical parts contains some kernels of interest. Not all beliefs are equally absurd -- Mormonism is orders of magnitude sillier.

In Buddhism of the original, Theravada kind, the "mythology" is that the Buddha left his prosperous life after witnessing human suffering and death, wandered around listening to various teachers of his era, decided they did not know how to avoid suffering, and sat under a tree until he worked out his own philosophy, which he then taught to others until he died.

In original Taoism, there appears to be no mythology at all. Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu were authors of the key Taoist texts, but we know practically nothing about either.

Both eventually gave their names to religions crowded with the usual gods, demons, angels ("bodhisattvas"), heavens, hells, etc. But that stuff has basically nothing to do with the original religions.

The Buddha's own alleged approach to such stuff was pretty simple - when pressed as to the existence of gods, demons, etc., he professed a sort of profound agnosticism: they may well exist, or not; but if they do, they don't know how to avoid suffering any more than people do! 

See, what you just described there is, IMO, not religion at all, but rather philosophy, and philosophy of the best kind...

Yes, once you strip some of the Eastern "religions" of their supernatural mumbo jumbo, they contain quite a bit of wisdom and insight.

[Martinus]

What's fundamentally absurd and baseless about Taoism or Buddhism?

The mythological parts are clearly nonsense, but the more philosophical parts contains some kernels of interest. Not all beliefs are equally absurd -- Mormonism is orders of magnitude sillier.

In Buddhism of the original, Theravada kind, the "mythology" is that the Buddha left his prosperous life after witnessing human suffering and death, wandered around listening to various teachers of his era, decided they did not know how to avoid suffering, and sat under a tree until he worked out his own philosophy, which he then taught to others until he died.

In original Taoism, there appears to be no mythology at all. Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu were authors of the key Taoist texts, but we know practically nothing about either.

Both eventually gave their names to religions crowded with the usual gods, demons, angels ("bodhisattvas"), heavens, hells, etc. But that stuff has basically nothing to do with the original religions.

The Buddha's own alleged approach to such stuff was pretty simple - when pressed as to the existence of gods, demons, etc., he professed a sort of profound agnosticism: they may well exist, or not; but if they do, they don't know how to avoid suffering any more than people do! 

See, what you just described there is, IMO, not religion at all, but rather philosophy, and philosophy of the best kind...

That's true. I think there are also certain Western philosophies that follow a similar pattern, but may be more familiar to a Western mind - sadly they are not as widespread as Buddhism and Taoism.

[Hamilcar]

That's true. I think there are also certain Western philosophies that follow a similar pattern, but may be more familiar to a Western mind - sadly they are not as widespread as Buddhism and Taoism.

There are aspects of Christianity which made explorations of consciousness of the kind done in the Buddhist/Hindu/Taoist tradition difficult to impossible.

[Martinus]

That's true. I think there are also certain Western philosophies that follow a similar pattern, but may be more familiar to a Western mind - sadly they are not as widespread as Buddhism and Taoism.

There are aspects of Christianity which made explorations of consciousness of the kind done in the Buddhist/Hindu/Taoist tradition difficult to impossible.

Yes, but the more mystical aspects of Freemasonry, Western Hermeticism, some aspects of Gnosticism, Neoplatonism etc. do this.

And they do so in the spirit of liberty and individualism that is more in sync with the Western mind.

[Barrister]

You are completely correct. Once you accept a religion's claims, the subsequent actions make perfect sense. I am sure Jack Chick thought he was right, just as the jihadi steering an airplane into a building full of infidels feels nothing but joy at doing his duty and earning his place in paradise.

I always love this old chestnut - that Christians are just the same as Muslims jihadis.

The thing is - once you accept the fundamental message that Jesus was the Son of God who died for our sins, it quite frankly opens up a lot more questions from there.  If God exists why is there evil in the world?  Are Christians required to keep kosher?  So what day of the week is the sabbath?  How exactly do we organize God's Church here on earth?

The large majority of Christians, even evangelical Christians, thought Jack Chick a bit of a nutter for his continued hostility towards Catholics.  The large majority is Muslims view suicide bombers as the opposite of what Islam stands for.

[Berkut]

You are completely correct. Once you accept a religion's claims, the subsequent actions make perfect sense. I am sure Jack Chick thought he was right, just as the jihadi steering an airplane into a building full of infidels feels nothing but joy at doing his duty and earning his place in paradise.

The depressing part of all this (cue Raz crazy trolling in 3...2...1...) is that realizing this creates a situation where the rationalists among us have to start contemplating some very nasty things, which happens already of course. We drop bombs on people, knowing full well we will kill a lot who are innocent, we engage in wars, we stomp on privacy rights, etc., etc. All to protect against people who honestly and truly believe that the purpose of their lives is their death...along with as many of the non-believers as they can manage.

[The Brain]

The thing is - once you accept the fundamental message that Jesus was the Son of God who died for our sins, it quite frankly opens up a lot more questions from there.  If God exists why is there evil in the world?  Are Christians required to keep kosher?  So what day of the week is the sabbath?  How exactly do we organize God's Church here on earth?

God is evil. No. Sunday. Lutheran state church.

[garbon]

The thing is - once you accept the fundamental message that Jesus was the Son of God who died for our sins, it quite frankly opens up a lot more questions from there.  If God exists why is there evil in the world?  Are Christians required to keep kosher?  So what day of the week is the sabbath?  How exactly do we organize God's Church here on earth?

Questions that generally end with, oh that myth my parents told me about might not be true.

[Martinus]

The thing is - once you accept the fundamental message that Jesus was the Son of God who died for our sins, it quite frankly opens up a lot more questions from there.  If God exists why is there evil in the world?  Are Christians required to keep kosher?  So what day of the week is the sabbath?  How exactly do we organize God's Church here on earth?

Questions that generally end with, oh that myth my parents told me about might not be true.

True. But life without myth is very dull and boring one. The trick is to find your own life's myth. This doesn't even have to be overtly spiritual. It could be a belief in humanism, or social and political activism, or even your kids. Cynical life is unbearable. Just be careful you don't fall into a crusading mode.

[The Brain]

The thing is - once you accept the fundamental message that Jesus was the Son of God who died for our sins, it quite frankly opens up a lot more questions from there.  If God exists why is there evil in the world?  Are Christians required to keep kosher?  So what day of the week is the sabbath?  How exactly do we organize God's Church here on earth?

Questions that generally end with, oh that myth my parents told me about might not be true.

True. But life without myth is very dull and boring one. The trick is to find your own life's myth.

Why would you need myth? Sounds infantile.

[garbon]

Personally, I think religion is the junk-food of spirituality. It satisfies an ubiquitous need, is easy to get and does not require much effort but does so in a way that is low nutrition and harmful to your well being. Mysticism and esoterism, on the other hand, is the equivalent of whole-grain home grown slow food. It takes time and effort to properly prepare but the benefits for your well being are much more pronounced. Atheism ls like arguing one should give up on eating because McDonald's is bad for you.

I guess if one is making a statement that you aren't really alive if you aren't spiritually inclined.

Of course, the metaphor before that was tortured so I guess I shouldn't overanalyze the ending.

[garbon]

The thing is - once you accept the fundamental message that Jesus was the Son of God who died for our sins, it quite frankly opens up a lot more questions from there.  If God exists why is there evil in the world?  Are Christians required to keep kosher?  So what day of the week is the sabbath?  How exactly do we organize God's Church here on earth?

Questions that generally end with, oh that myth my parents told me about might not be true.

True. But life without myth is very dull and boring one. The trick is to find your own life's myth.

Why would you need myth? Sounds infantile.

You can't hug a fact.

[Berkut]

You are completely correct. Once you accept a religion's claims, the subsequent actions make perfect sense. I am sure Jack Chick thought he was right, just as the jihadi steering an airplane into a building full of infidels feels nothing but joy at doing his duty and earning his place in paradise.

I always love this old chestnut - that Christians are just the same as Muslims jihadis.

I think that is a incorrect over-simplification of the point.

Fundamentally, choosing to believe that Allah wants you to do <X> because Passage <A> in Book <Z> is not any different than believing that Jesus wants you to do <Y> because Passage <B> in Book <W> on the basis of religious indonctrination. These are basically the exact same thing.

However, clearly from a practical standpoint, the nature of <X and Y> is rather important, and the justification for them is as well. The nature of the difference at its basic level is not really different though.

Indeed, you laugh off the idea that Christians and jihadis are so different, but the truth is that Christians have done things just as horrific as anything ISIS does on the basis that they thought God wanted them to. They burned people at the stake for the crime of witchcraft because they thought it was pleasing to God. How is that different in kind?

Of course, in todays practical reality, Christians don't do that anymore, so it is simply not an issue. So in that sense, there is a clear and obvious difference that is critical to how we approach those religions.

The thing is - once you accept the fundamental message that Jesus was the Son of God who died for our sins, it quite frankly opens up a lot more questions from there.  If God exists why is there evil in the world?  Are Christians required to keep kosher?  So what day of the week is the sabbath?  How exactly do we organize God's Church here on earth?

Should we really stone women who go outside on their periods?

What is the proper punishment for denying Christ?

Should we suffer a witch to live?

Yes, lots of questions!

The large majority of Christians, even evangelical Christians, thought Jack Chick a bit of a nutter for his continued hostility towards Catholics.  The large majority is Muslims view suicide bombers as the opposite of what Islam stands for.

I've had evangelical Christians hand me Chick tracks when I was a kid. I am not sure so many of them find him a nutter as you think.

And again, if you accept the premise of HIS particular brand of Christianity, he isn't a nutter at all.